1
00:00:01,810 --> 00:00:00,470
[Music]

2
00:00:31,670 --> 00:00:01,820
foreign

3
00:00:34,250 --> 00:00:31,680
[Music]

4
00:00:41,270 --> 00:00:34,260
[Applause]

5
00:00:41,280 --> 00:00:48,850
foreign

6
00:01:39,310 --> 00:01:30,950
[Music]

7
00:01:45,230 --> 00:01:42,289
broadcasting live from the Borderlands

8
00:01:47,569 --> 00:01:45,240
of Canada's national capital region I

9
00:01:50,210 --> 00:01:47,579
bid you all good morning good afternoon

10
00:01:52,069 --> 00:01:50,220
good evening good night wherever you are

11
00:01:55,249 --> 00:01:52,079
across the continent around the world

12
00:01:57,830 --> 00:01:55,259
I'm Campbell marrera and this is the

13
00:02:00,830 --> 00:01:57,840
invisible night school the invisible

14
00:02:03,710 --> 00:02:00,840
night school there I got

15
00:02:06,830 --> 00:02:03,720
tonight I am very excited

16
00:02:08,930 --> 00:02:06,840
to be introducing a guest that I have

17
00:02:13,130 --> 00:02:08,940
been really looking forward to speaking

18
00:02:16,250 --> 00:02:13,140
with uh Deborah Hyde is with us and um I

19
00:02:18,050 --> 00:02:16,260
just closed the link accidentally to the

20
00:02:20,449 --> 00:02:18,060
introduction that I had prepared so I'm

21
00:02:24,290 --> 00:02:20,459
just going to bring her on right now

22
00:02:27,410 --> 00:02:24,300
Deborah hi hello hi there

23
00:02:29,809 --> 00:02:27,420
so for everybody joining us uh since

24
00:02:32,809 --> 00:02:29,819
I've messed up the intro would you be

25
00:02:35,470 --> 00:02:32,819
able to provide a brief rundown of uh

26
00:02:38,570 --> 00:02:35,480
what it is that you do in this space

27
00:02:41,330 --> 00:02:38,580
well I'm really fascinated by dark

28
00:02:43,610 --> 00:02:41,340
folklore and by Superstition uh but

29
00:02:46,070 --> 00:02:43,620
unusually I don't believe in any of it

30
00:02:49,430 --> 00:02:46,080
so I'm I'm not a cynic I'm a skeptic

31
00:02:51,650 --> 00:02:49,440
which means that I look for kind of more

32
00:02:53,809 --> 00:02:51,660
uh realistic reasons why people would

33
00:02:56,990 --> 00:02:53,819
come up with these peculiar experiences

34
00:02:59,150 --> 00:02:57,000
and peculiar stories and I edited the

35
00:03:02,270 --> 00:02:59,160
skeptic magazine the UK skeptic magazine

36
00:03:04,190 --> 00:03:02,280
for 10 years uh and I'm a member of the

37
00:03:05,690 --> 00:03:04,200
committee for skeptical inquiry based in

38
00:03:08,949 --> 00:03:05,700
the US

39
00:03:12,710 --> 00:03:08,959
um so I do I do podcasts and articles

40
00:03:14,630 --> 00:03:12,720
and I'm writing a book uh so generally

41
00:03:17,210 --> 00:03:14,640
talking on this subject

42
00:03:19,250 --> 00:03:17,220
excellent I have been listening to some

43
00:03:22,309 --> 00:03:19,260
of your appearances on other podcasts

44
00:03:24,530 --> 00:03:22,319
and I really enjoy your perspective

45
00:03:27,530 --> 00:03:24,540
something that I thought was really neat

46
00:03:30,530 --> 00:03:27,540
and I related to was that you shared an

47
00:03:32,449 --> 00:03:30,540
experience from your childhood that you

48
00:03:34,490 --> 00:03:32,459
felt influenced you strongly into

49
00:03:35,990 --> 00:03:34,500
becoming interested in this subject I

50
00:03:37,369 --> 00:03:36,000
was wondering if you could sort of talk

51
00:03:40,490 --> 00:03:37,379
about that a little bit and maybe talk

52
00:03:43,430 --> 00:03:40,500
about how your perspective shifted over

53
00:03:46,250 --> 00:03:43,440
time and what led to that

54
00:03:48,170 --> 00:03:46,260
well if I think the one you may be

55
00:03:49,490 --> 00:03:48,180
speaking about is when

56
00:03:52,490 --> 00:03:49,500
um I was

57
00:03:55,130 --> 00:03:52,500
I believed in ghosts I was so terrified

58
00:03:59,030 --> 00:03:55,140
of ghosts lots of people are when

59
00:04:01,850 --> 00:03:59,040
they're young and uh I was I woke up in

60
00:04:04,490 --> 00:04:01,860
the middle of the night and

61
00:04:06,110 --> 00:04:04,500
I absolutely heard this noise I heard

62
00:04:10,070 --> 00:04:06,120
this noise you know it wasn't a

63
00:04:11,570 --> 00:04:10,080
hallucination it wasn't a dream it and I

64
00:04:13,729 --> 00:04:11,580
made sense of it straight away it was

65
00:04:15,289 --> 00:04:13,739
like somebody had some Pebbles or

66
00:04:18,129 --> 00:04:15,299
something and they were just throwing

67
00:04:21,830 --> 00:04:18,139
them up in their hand and catching them

68
00:04:23,270 --> 00:04:21,840
and then there was a loud clang as

69
00:04:25,129 --> 00:04:23,280
though somebody had got these Pebbles

70
00:04:26,629 --> 00:04:25,139
and thrown them against the radiator in

71
00:04:30,290 --> 00:04:26,639
the corner of the room

72
00:04:34,189 --> 00:04:30,300
and I was absolutely terrified because

73
00:04:37,189 --> 00:04:34,199
it had happened and I had heard it well

74
00:04:39,230 --> 00:04:37,199
a couple of days later I found that that

75
00:04:40,730 --> 00:04:39,240
there were some coins some Norwegian

76
00:04:43,670 --> 00:04:40,740
coins I'd had because I'd done a project

77
00:04:47,030 --> 00:04:43,680
on on Norway and um

78
00:04:49,430 --> 00:04:47,040
I'd woken up in the night and the tape

79
00:04:51,050 --> 00:04:49,440
had started to peel off the paper and

80
00:04:54,409 --> 00:04:51,060
that was what I could hear I could hear

81
00:04:57,590 --> 00:04:54,419
this kind of noise

82
00:04:59,450 --> 00:04:57,600
but I hadn't just heard an undiagnosed

83
00:05:01,430 --> 00:04:59,460
noise I've turned it into a whole story

84
00:05:03,710 --> 00:05:01,440
I mean I thought that it was the sound

85
00:05:05,990 --> 00:05:03,720
of Pebbles and then of course when they

86
00:05:07,850 --> 00:05:06,000
finally came completely loose they just

87
00:05:11,390 --> 00:05:07,860
they fell down on top of the radiator

88
00:05:14,170 --> 00:05:11,400
that was the clanging I heard and it it

89
00:05:17,230 --> 00:05:14,180
made such an impact because I realized

90
00:05:20,990 --> 00:05:17,240
instantaneously I had made a whole story

91
00:05:24,230 --> 00:05:21,000
out of some ambiguous information

92
00:05:25,850 --> 00:05:24,240
and I thought well you know I know

93
00:05:27,290 --> 00:05:25,860
people aren't dumb for doing this I

94
00:05:29,150 --> 00:05:27,300
think it's probably a fairly natural

95
00:05:31,490 --> 00:05:29,160
thing to do

96
00:05:33,890 --> 00:05:31,500
um and that experience of it happening

97
00:05:35,749 --> 00:05:33,900
to me was well I think was very

98
00:05:38,210 --> 00:05:35,759
formative I still continue to believe

99
00:05:40,969 --> 00:05:38,220
for many years afterwards but but I kind

100
00:05:43,850 --> 00:05:40,979
of go back to that one as as being

101
00:05:46,090 --> 00:05:43,860
the start of um the start of looking for

102
00:05:49,070 --> 00:05:46,100
other explanations

103
00:05:52,189 --> 00:05:49,080
something I've seen a lot when I I look

104
00:05:55,310 --> 00:05:52,199
into the study of pedagogy like alert

105
00:05:57,050 --> 00:05:55,320
teaching people things and uh in order

106
00:05:58,610 --> 00:05:57,060
to try to communicate better but also to

107
00:06:01,850 --> 00:05:58,620
understand my own mind and something

108
00:06:03,950 --> 00:06:01,860
I've seen in the research is that the

109
00:06:06,770 --> 00:06:03,960
most effective way to

110
00:06:08,930 --> 00:06:06,780
bring new information into somebody's uh

111
00:06:11,570 --> 00:06:08,940
world view that they perhaps have a

112
00:06:13,850 --> 00:06:11,580
resistance to initially is to have it be

113
00:06:17,330 --> 00:06:13,860
somebody who has had the perspective

114
00:06:19,909 --> 00:06:17,340
that they have and then has gone through

115
00:06:21,409 --> 00:06:19,919
the chain of reasoning that has led them

116
00:06:23,210 --> 00:06:21,419
to change their perspective so that

117
00:06:25,790 --> 00:06:23,220
person is actually much better at

118
00:06:27,710 --> 00:06:25,800
convincing somebody uh than somebody who

119
00:06:29,510 --> 00:06:27,720
has never had that process happen

120
00:06:31,249 --> 00:06:29,520
well yeah because you're relating to

121
00:06:33,650 --> 00:06:31,259
someone instead of speaking down to them

122
00:06:36,590 --> 00:06:33,660
I guess right and that's something that

123
00:06:38,510 --> 00:06:36,600
even in my own experience uh yeah I sort

124
00:06:42,529 --> 00:06:38,520
of jumped into this subject pretty

125
00:06:45,170 --> 00:06:42,539
quickly in 2021 during the pandemic I

126
00:06:48,290 --> 00:06:45,180
was the first yeah I'm an atheist uh

127
00:06:50,050 --> 00:06:48,300
from as early as I can imagine uh you

128
00:06:53,450 --> 00:06:50,060
know a uh

129
00:06:57,110 --> 00:06:53,460
empiricist I studied philosophy at

130
00:06:59,749 --> 00:06:57,120
University so yeah yeah I don't have any

131
00:07:01,249 --> 00:06:59,759
uh historical interests like it just

132
00:07:03,110 --> 00:07:01,259
wasn't on my radar at all to even think

133
00:07:06,529 --> 00:07:03,120
of that Supernatural or UFOs or anything

134
00:07:07,790 --> 00:07:06,539
and then when for some I guess I guess I

135
00:07:09,469 --> 00:07:07,800
know the reason there's just the

136
00:07:11,990 --> 00:07:09,479
pandemic and all the trauma and my

137
00:07:14,570 --> 00:07:12,000
business got shut down and uh I was left

138
00:07:16,670 --> 00:07:14,580
with time and then this UFO stuff kept

139
00:07:18,770 --> 00:07:16,680
being on my mainstream news feed and I'm

140
00:07:20,210 --> 00:07:18,780
just what what the heck's going on with

141
00:07:22,189 --> 00:07:20,220
this why is President Obama talking

142
00:07:24,409 --> 00:07:22,199
about this all this stuff so it the

143
00:07:26,150 --> 00:07:24,419
trauma opened my mind to sort of looking

144
00:07:27,950 --> 00:07:26,160
at different things you know it and it's

145
00:07:29,689 --> 00:07:27,960
sort of the way that the brain works is

146
00:07:32,390 --> 00:07:29,699
that you need a radical shift when these

147
00:07:34,370 --> 00:07:32,400
huge things happen oh yeah

148
00:07:37,070 --> 00:07:34,380
you know and so in the skeptic Community

149
00:07:39,350 --> 00:07:37,080
uh uh when I've started to engage on it

150
00:07:41,749 --> 00:07:39,360
I was kind of coming at it and I still

151
00:07:43,610 --> 00:07:41,759
do from a naturalization perspective

152
00:07:45,290 --> 00:07:43,620
like trying to

153
00:07:46,909 --> 00:07:45,300
understand what people are actually

154
00:07:49,309 --> 00:07:46,919
describing relating that to the natural

155
00:07:51,050 --> 00:07:49,319
phenomenon things like that but there's

156
00:07:53,210 --> 00:07:51,060
a debate I've seen in the skeptic

157
00:07:54,890 --> 00:07:53,220
community and you know extends to ghosts

158
00:07:56,689 --> 00:07:54,900
and other things too where there's a

159
00:07:58,570 --> 00:07:56,699
resistance to trying to provide any

160
00:08:02,510 --> 00:07:58,580
explanation at all because

161
00:08:04,010 --> 00:08:02,520
oftentimes there is just a well you know

162
00:08:06,290 --> 00:08:04,020
there's a variety of reasons why that is

163
00:08:08,210 --> 00:08:06,300
is that something that you're familiar

164
00:08:10,370 --> 00:08:08,220
with in the skeptic community in a

165
00:08:12,770 --> 00:08:10,380
broader uh sense uh just because I'm

166
00:08:14,749 --> 00:08:12,780
very curious about that element of it

167
00:08:18,050 --> 00:08:14,759
not over here

168
00:08:20,350 --> 00:08:18,060
um I because I the skeptic Community is

169
00:08:23,510 --> 00:08:20,360
a slightly different uh in North America

170
00:08:25,089 --> 00:08:23,520
uh and I appreciated Canada and the US

171
00:08:29,390 --> 00:08:25,099
are very culturally different

172
00:08:32,750 --> 00:08:29,400
respectively uh and the UK I think uh

173
00:08:34,909 --> 00:08:32,760
religion is you know it's open season on

174
00:08:37,430 --> 00:08:34,919
religion over here so people are quite

175
00:08:39,409 --> 00:08:37,440
happy to talk about why

176
00:08:40,730 --> 00:08:39,419
you know the Practical reasons why

177
00:08:43,070 --> 00:08:40,740
people may have religious or

178
00:08:45,829 --> 00:08:43,080
superstitious or Supernatural

179
00:08:48,110 --> 00:08:45,839
experiences actually one of the most

180
00:08:50,690 --> 00:08:48,120
popular podcasts on the BBC at the

181
00:08:54,050 --> 00:08:50,700
moment on BBC sounds Channel over here

182
00:08:56,030 --> 00:08:54,060
is one called uncanny and um I go on

183
00:08:57,590 --> 00:08:56,040
that from time to time and what they do

184
00:08:59,810 --> 00:08:57,600
is they have people who've had strange

185
00:09:03,290 --> 00:08:59,820
experiences

186
00:09:05,150 --> 00:09:03,300
and they get to what they call experts

187
00:09:06,650 --> 00:09:05,160
and one tends to be a skeptic and one

188
00:09:09,290 --> 00:09:06,660
tends to be a believer and they both

189
00:09:10,790 --> 00:09:09,300
offer different perspectives on it so I

190
00:09:13,550 --> 00:09:10,800
I think the thought about the thought of

191
00:09:15,170 --> 00:09:13,560
doing a show like that over here without

192
00:09:17,690 --> 00:09:15,180
a skeptic

193
00:09:21,410 --> 00:09:17,700
perspective on it would would probably

194
00:09:23,750 --> 00:09:21,420
be a bit counter-intuitive so um yeah no

195
00:09:24,590 --> 00:09:23,760
as far as ghosts and everything goes I

196
00:09:27,530 --> 00:09:24,600
think

197
00:09:29,449 --> 00:09:27,540
the UK

198
00:09:30,650 --> 00:09:29,459
um I mean obviously ghosts are really

199
00:09:32,449 --> 00:09:30,660
entertaining

200
00:09:34,190 --> 00:09:32,459
and we have the shows where people go

201
00:09:36,290 --> 00:09:34,200
into haunted houses and there's not

202
00:09:38,150 --> 00:09:36,300
enough light and they can hear ambient

203
00:09:39,350 --> 00:09:38,160
noises and the presenter screams in the

204
00:09:41,449 --> 00:09:39,360
corner of the room and you know it's

205
00:09:43,550 --> 00:09:41,459
entertainment too

206
00:09:46,610 --> 00:09:43,560
um but I I do think we

207
00:09:49,670 --> 00:09:46,620
we have an active discourse about the uh

208
00:09:52,490 --> 00:09:49,680
about the skeptical perspective on it

209
00:09:55,550 --> 00:09:52,500
right now yeah on this show uh we often

210
00:09:58,550 --> 00:09:55,560
do talk about UFOs but we've gone into a

211
00:10:01,250 --> 00:09:58,560
broader uh subjects as well relating the

212
00:10:04,610 --> 00:10:01,260
folklore we had Brian sentizan who does

213
00:10:05,570 --> 00:10:04,620
the study that stuff and

214
00:10:07,009 --> 00:10:05,580
um

215
00:10:09,110 --> 00:10:07,019
there are a lot of commonalities

216
00:10:12,170 --> 00:10:09,120
obviously uh We've also sort of touched

217
00:10:14,210 --> 00:10:12,180
on the occult and Marco Visconti was on

218
00:10:18,710 --> 00:10:14,220
and things like that the modern uh

219
00:10:23,210 --> 00:10:18,720
practice of ritual magic uh

220
00:10:24,710 --> 00:10:23,220
from your experience engaging with these

221
00:10:26,630 --> 00:10:24,720
subjects

222
00:10:28,790 --> 00:10:26,640
how do you draw the line This is

223
00:10:31,009 --> 00:10:28,800
actually a question that Leah uh

224
00:10:32,150 --> 00:10:31,019
suggested to me uh to ask how did you

225
00:10:34,670 --> 00:10:32,160
how do you draw the line between

226
00:10:36,850 --> 00:10:34,680
engaging with it in a way that is uh

227
00:10:39,710 --> 00:10:36,860
pro-social is helping out versus

228
00:10:41,810 --> 00:10:39,720
increasing attention at all onto

229
00:10:44,990 --> 00:10:41,820
subjects that can sort of get people

230
00:10:47,449 --> 00:10:45,000
very uh fixated focused uh maybe harmful

231
00:10:48,850 --> 00:10:47,459
in some respects if if we're talking

232
00:10:50,690 --> 00:10:48,860
about them

233
00:10:53,449 --> 00:10:50,700
is there

234
00:10:54,889 --> 00:10:53,459
what do you use as that defining point

235
00:10:57,170 --> 00:10:54,899
where it's

236
00:10:59,410 --> 00:10:57,180
pro-social causing benefit to be talking

237
00:11:03,170 --> 00:10:59,420
about it versus like causing harm

238
00:11:04,850 --> 00:11:03,180
I don't know if there is I I do think

239
00:11:07,750 --> 00:11:04,860
that there probably is home to be done

240
00:11:10,910 --> 00:11:07,760
if you speak about a lot of

241
00:11:12,590 --> 00:11:10,920
Supernatural staff in a believing sense

242
00:11:14,090 --> 00:11:12,600
because you can encourage people to part

243
00:11:16,670 --> 00:11:14,100
with money you can encourage people to

244
00:11:18,530 --> 00:11:16,680
part with their wits and their logic if

245
00:11:22,550 --> 00:11:18,540
you're offering a skeptical perspective

246
00:11:24,230 --> 00:11:22,560
I don't know if I don't know if there is

247
00:11:26,509 --> 00:11:24,240
a limit I mean

248
00:11:28,190 --> 00:11:26,519
um I I suppose you have to gauge each

249
00:11:30,769 --> 00:11:28,200
show you go on to as the sort of

250
00:11:33,530 --> 00:11:30,779
entertainment element of it are you are

251
00:11:37,430 --> 00:11:33,540
you going to be there just as a

252
00:11:39,470 --> 00:11:37,440
you know just to just to offer and not

253
00:11:42,530 --> 00:11:39,480
really any perspective I I don't I think

254
00:11:44,030 --> 00:11:42,540
any um I think anyone who stands to be

255
00:11:46,310 --> 00:11:44,040
harmed by

256
00:11:48,650 --> 00:11:46,320
a belief in stuff like this for example

257
00:11:51,590 --> 00:11:48,660
becoming psychologically dependent on

258
00:11:54,650 --> 00:11:51,600
mediums or psychics

259
00:11:55,970 --> 00:11:54,660
uh I I I don't think that the skeptical

260
00:11:58,970 --> 00:11:55,980
perspective

261
00:12:01,370 --> 00:11:58,980
on media is is going to make it any

262
00:12:03,889 --> 00:12:01,380
worse for them you know hopefully if

263
00:12:05,690 --> 00:12:03,899
they're just regularly reminded that

264
00:12:09,290 --> 00:12:05,700
there is a skeptical perspective then

265
00:12:11,389 --> 00:12:09,300
that would minimize harm in fact

266
00:12:13,009 --> 00:12:11,399
well that's a great Point

267
00:12:14,630 --> 00:12:13,019
um so there's some that you brought me

268
00:12:16,069 --> 00:12:14,640
out brought up the mediums and things

269
00:12:19,310 --> 00:12:16,079
like that actually somebody who's

270
00:12:20,990 --> 00:12:19,320
important to me in my life recently they

271
00:12:23,990 --> 00:12:21,000
have not historically expressed the

272
00:12:28,030 --> 00:12:24,000
belief in mediums but then a friend of

273
00:12:30,170 --> 00:12:28,040
theirs took them to a large sort of a

274
00:12:32,930 --> 00:12:30,180
auditorium-based style where the person

275
00:12:36,650 --> 00:12:32,940
is sort of trying to speak to individual

276
00:12:39,530 --> 00:12:36,660
members of the audience randomly and the

277
00:12:41,150 --> 00:12:39,540
outcome of that was that the person I'm

278
00:12:43,610 --> 00:12:41,160
talking about was a little initially

279
00:12:45,769 --> 00:12:43,620
skeptical it seems like the presenter

280
00:12:49,069 --> 00:12:45,779
picked up on that started focusing in

281
00:12:51,470 --> 00:12:49,079
and ended up having them uh you know

282
00:12:55,550 --> 00:12:51,480
crying thinking that they're being

283
00:12:58,730 --> 00:12:55,560
spoken to by a deceased relative and uh

284
00:13:01,490 --> 00:12:58,740
and now the medium told them that every

285
00:13:03,290 --> 00:13:01,500
time they see a dime on the ground it's

286
00:13:04,490 --> 00:13:03,300
this uh deceased person communicating

287
00:13:06,769 --> 00:13:04,500
with them and now they have a huge

288
00:13:08,389 --> 00:13:06,779
collection of Dimes and

289
00:13:10,009 --> 00:13:08,399
you know it's like the dimes have

290
00:13:12,110 --> 00:13:10,019
nothing to do with the relationship so

291
00:13:13,850 --> 00:13:12,120
it's like you know it's a nice little

292
00:13:15,710 --> 00:13:13,860
reminder of the person but it has no

293
00:13:17,090 --> 00:13:15,720
relationship to their experience with

294
00:13:17,990 --> 00:13:17,100
them would you be able to sort of break

295
00:13:20,090 --> 00:13:18,000
down

296
00:13:21,410 --> 00:13:20,100
what's going on there from your

297
00:13:23,269 --> 00:13:21,420
perspective

298
00:13:25,250 --> 00:13:23,279
yeah I think there are several things

299
00:13:26,690 --> 00:13:25,260
going on there first of all I do think

300
00:13:28,850 --> 00:13:26,700
there are an awful lot of people who

301
00:13:31,129 --> 00:13:28,860
believe with all their hearts that they

302
00:13:33,170 --> 00:13:31,139
have psychic powers

303
00:13:35,629 --> 00:13:33,180
um and they they sort of tend to be

304
00:13:37,550 --> 00:13:35,639
nickel and dime workers and they just

305
00:13:38,829 --> 00:13:37,560
you know they have private clients if

306
00:13:41,990 --> 00:13:38,839
you have someone who's feeling

307
00:13:43,910 --> 00:13:42,000
auditoriums uh then that's a bit more of

308
00:13:46,009 --> 00:13:43,920
a Carnie Vibe isn't it I mean that's

309
00:13:47,870 --> 00:13:46,019
that's sort of

310
00:13:50,629 --> 00:13:47,880
um you know you can just imagine someone

311
00:13:52,069 --> 00:13:50,639
filling a tent or you know a revival

312
00:13:54,230 --> 00:13:52,079
tent I mean it's the same kind of

313
00:13:55,490 --> 00:13:54,240
psychological Dynamic the thing I would

314
00:13:59,509 --> 00:13:55,500
always say somebody who's got a good

315
00:14:01,930 --> 00:13:59,519
reading from a psychic is that go to a

316
00:14:05,569 --> 00:14:01,940
magician you'll get a better reading

317
00:14:07,750 --> 00:14:05,579
people who do who actually perform

318
00:14:10,970 --> 00:14:07,760
magical tricks conjurers

319
00:14:12,610 --> 00:14:10,980
when they are psychological conjurers

320
00:14:16,310 --> 00:14:12,620
um they are really good at this stuff

321
00:14:18,230 --> 00:14:16,320
usually better than the carnies and

322
00:14:19,910 --> 00:14:18,240
they use the same techniques I mean

323
00:14:21,170 --> 00:14:19,920
generally what you start with is is what

324
00:14:23,329 --> 00:14:21,180
are called Barnum statements they're

325
00:14:28,910 --> 00:14:23,339
sort of General statements that tend to

326
00:14:30,710 --> 00:14:28,920
apply to 17 or 80 of the of the room and

327
00:14:32,690 --> 00:14:30,720
you can zero in and you can make people

328
00:14:34,370 --> 00:14:32,700
feel as though you're saying things that

329
00:14:35,810 --> 00:14:34,380
are really highly relevant and specific

330
00:14:38,389 --> 00:14:35,820
to them

331
00:14:42,189 --> 00:14:38,399
um and then you can depending on their

332
00:14:46,250 --> 00:14:42,199
reactions you can you can kind of

333
00:14:49,009 --> 00:14:46,260
narrow in and um people tend to forget

334
00:14:50,750 --> 00:14:49,019
the negative hits you know the things

335
00:14:53,269 --> 00:14:50,760
where somebody's just wrong

336
00:14:55,310 --> 00:14:53,279
they tend to sort of have they tend to

337
00:14:56,930 --> 00:14:55,320
remember the experience badly which is

338
00:14:58,730 --> 00:14:56,940
why it's good to get it filmed or at

339
00:15:00,889 --> 00:14:58,740
least someone have you know taking

340
00:15:02,449 --> 00:15:00,899
someone getting someone to take notes

341
00:15:05,170 --> 00:15:02,459
for you

342
00:15:07,850 --> 00:15:05,180
um and then if you give them approver

343
00:15:09,350 --> 00:15:07,860
that is commonplace enough but that they

344
00:15:12,230 --> 00:15:09,360
wouldn't have noticed otherwise like

345
00:15:15,949 --> 00:15:12,240
finding a dime I mean we all find dimes

346
00:15:18,550 --> 00:15:15,959
um fairly regularly so this person now

347
00:15:21,530 --> 00:15:18,560
just feels like there's a call back

348
00:15:23,269 --> 00:15:21,540
uh so psychologically what's happened to

349
00:15:26,030 --> 00:15:23,279
your friend is very

350
00:15:27,769 --> 00:15:26,040
is very predictable and you could have a

351
00:15:28,970 --> 00:15:27,779
country explain it far better than I

352
00:15:30,769 --> 00:15:28,980
could

353
00:15:33,230 --> 00:15:30,779
I think also the fact that they lost

354
00:15:34,910 --> 00:15:33,240
someone recently means that they are in

355
00:15:36,949 --> 00:15:34,920
a rather vulnerable position where they

356
00:15:38,569 --> 00:15:36,959
they would like to believe I mean who

357
00:15:40,069 --> 00:15:38,579
wouldn't like to believe that that

358
00:15:42,050 --> 00:15:40,079
you've lost someone but they're still

359
00:15:44,269 --> 00:15:42,060
kind of close to you

360
00:15:46,189 --> 00:15:44,279
um this uh this stuff can get really

361
00:15:48,230 --> 00:15:46,199
evil sometimes

362
00:15:50,389 --> 00:15:48,240
yeah okay well that's a good little

363
00:15:52,910 --> 00:15:50,399
transition actually because the the

364
00:15:55,189 --> 00:15:52,920
title of the show for today was a dark

365
00:15:57,530 --> 00:15:55,199
folklore yeah that's your specialization

366
00:15:59,750 --> 00:15:57,540
of vampires and werewolves and things of

367
00:16:01,610 --> 00:15:59,760
that nature which is uh

368
00:16:04,670 --> 00:16:01,620
you know all part of the the bigger

369
00:16:07,069 --> 00:16:04,680
Supernatural paranormal world uh so

370
00:16:09,590 --> 00:16:07,079
there are these I it's so easy to

371
00:16:11,090 --> 00:16:09,600
understand the positives right it's like

372
00:16:13,730 --> 00:16:11,100
who doesn't want to live forever like

373
00:16:16,490 --> 00:16:13,740
yeah part of why why I engage so

374
00:16:19,490 --> 00:16:16,500
thoroughly in study of Religion is uh

375
00:16:22,069 --> 00:16:19,500
that I want to live forever I I want

376
00:16:23,990 --> 00:16:22,079
that and I just can't find evidence to

377
00:16:25,250 --> 00:16:24,000
support that yeah you know it's uh it's

378
00:16:26,750 --> 00:16:25,260
kind of funny like you know there's the

379
00:16:29,150 --> 00:16:26,760
whole story about Genghis Khan uh

380
00:16:30,889 --> 00:16:29,160
searching his entire Kingdom for

381
00:16:33,650 --> 00:16:30,899
all of these people saying that they can

382
00:16:35,030 --> 00:16:33,660
provide an infinite life and uh yet uh

383
00:16:37,550 --> 00:16:35,040
once they were brought into the castle

384
00:16:38,569 --> 00:16:37,560
you know it couldn't make it happen so

385
00:16:40,249 --> 00:16:38,579
yeah and you wouldn't want to piss

386
00:16:42,110 --> 00:16:40,259
Genghis Khan off would you I mean I'm

387
00:16:43,730 --> 00:16:42,120
surprised they made these things yeah

388
00:16:45,410 --> 00:16:43,740
well you know I mean it's like you're

389
00:16:46,910 --> 00:16:45,420
advertising yourself and then you find

390
00:16:49,730 --> 00:16:46,920
out Genghis Khan's looking for you it's

391
00:16:53,210 --> 00:16:49,740
like oh I'm in trouble I'm wrong in that

392
00:16:55,490 --> 00:16:53,220
moment but uh so for like the really

393
00:16:57,290 --> 00:16:55,500
positive stuff is so understandable what

394
00:17:00,110 --> 00:16:57,300
there are these they're very dark

395
00:17:02,930 --> 00:17:00,120
elements to the Paranormal though like

396
00:17:04,850 --> 00:17:02,940
Supernatural could we get into a little

397
00:17:06,770 --> 00:17:04,860
bit about where does this Darkness

398
00:17:10,010 --> 00:17:06,780
originate

399
00:17:13,549 --> 00:17:10,020
well I think your assumption there is

400
00:17:14,270 --> 00:17:13,559
first of all that God isn't dark and

401
00:17:19,370 --> 00:17:14,280
um

402
00:17:21,049 --> 00:17:19,380
so the the thought that I I mean you

403
00:17:22,850 --> 00:17:21,059
know the the thought that they are kind

404
00:17:25,490 --> 00:17:22,860
of at opposite ends of a spectrum and

405
00:17:26,630 --> 00:17:25,500
that God's really cool and and light and

406
00:17:29,150 --> 00:17:26,640
that

407
00:17:30,830 --> 00:17:29,160
um all of these things are responsible

408
00:17:32,510 --> 00:17:30,840
for bad stuff I mean that's only a

409
00:17:35,270 --> 00:17:32,520
specific kind of theology you tend to

410
00:17:38,029 --> 00:17:35,280
get that with monotheism with uh judoism

411
00:17:40,010 --> 00:17:38,039
Christianity Islam uh

412
00:17:42,289 --> 00:17:40,020
where you have

413
00:17:43,549 --> 00:17:42,299
a god which is you know supposed to

414
00:17:45,470 --> 00:17:43,559
represent everything good and then

415
00:17:47,930 --> 00:17:45,480
you're stuck because you have to account

416
00:17:50,390 --> 00:17:47,940
for the evil in the world uh but there's

417
00:17:52,370 --> 00:17:50,400
an awful lot of religious environments

418
00:17:53,750 --> 00:17:52,380
where their gods are a little bit more

419
00:17:57,169 --> 00:17:53,760
nuanced they're a little bit more human

420
00:17:57,890 --> 00:17:57,179
and they kind of they fail or or

421
00:18:00,590 --> 00:17:57,900
um

422
00:18:02,390 --> 00:18:00,600
they just they have some what we would

423
00:18:04,549 --> 00:18:02,400
regard as good characteristics and some

424
00:18:05,630 --> 00:18:04,559
is bad so

425
00:18:08,330 --> 00:18:05,640
um

426
00:18:12,230 --> 00:18:08,340
I would say I I think what's what it has

427
00:18:14,930 --> 00:18:12,240
tended to happen in the past is that

428
00:18:16,190 --> 00:18:14,940
people think that religious and this is

429
00:18:17,630 --> 00:18:16,200
one of the reasons that I wanted to

430
00:18:20,029 --> 00:18:17,640
study all this stuff is because people

431
00:18:22,430 --> 00:18:20,039
think that religion is a very serious

432
00:18:24,710 --> 00:18:22,440
subject and then they think that

433
00:18:26,590 --> 00:18:24,720
vampires are very frivolous

434
00:18:31,370 --> 00:18:26,600
and

435
00:18:33,409 --> 00:18:31,380
guess this is what I've tried to do all

436
00:18:36,529 --> 00:18:33,419
this time is to say well look people

437
00:18:39,169 --> 00:18:36,539
have Faithfully believed in both things

438
00:18:42,470 --> 00:18:39,179
and those people weren't dumb

439
00:18:45,529 --> 00:18:42,480
uh and so that's got to say something

440
00:18:47,570 --> 00:18:45,539
about Humanity why why can we not

441
00:18:50,029 --> 00:18:47,580
question whether or not the

442
00:18:52,070 --> 00:18:50,039
underpinnings of a belief in God are the

443
00:18:53,210 --> 00:18:52,080
same as the underpinnings in a belief in

444
00:18:56,450 --> 00:18:53,220
a vampire

445
00:18:59,029 --> 00:18:56,460
and that's kind of my starting point

446
00:19:02,150 --> 00:18:59,039
interesting yeah

447
00:19:06,850 --> 00:19:02,160
so with vampires and werewolves there's

448
00:19:09,890 --> 00:19:06,860
this like transition from being a human

449
00:19:13,789 --> 00:19:09,900
and then becoming a monster

450
00:19:15,789 --> 00:19:13,799
and that's a pretty fascinating thing to

451
00:19:19,010 --> 00:19:15,799
me because you know obviously it mirrors

452
00:19:21,590 --> 00:19:19,020
people's uh experience with other people

453
00:19:23,450 --> 00:19:21,600
in reality where you sort of perceive

454
00:19:25,130 --> 00:19:23,460
that over time they can change and

455
00:19:28,370 --> 00:19:25,140
become somebody they aren't that's more

456
00:19:30,350 --> 00:19:28,380
uh you know abstract but in like a real

457
00:19:32,350 --> 00:19:30,360
sense

458
00:19:35,990 --> 00:19:32,360
um so once again somebody in my life

459
00:19:39,470 --> 00:19:36,000
developed migraine suddenly you know all

460
00:19:41,090 --> 00:19:39,480
right yeah sudden intense uh headache

461
00:19:43,370 --> 00:19:41,100
and experience that now like you know

462
00:19:45,409 --> 00:19:43,380
sensitivity to light

463
00:19:48,289 --> 00:19:45,419
um loud noises things like that and I

464
00:19:50,930 --> 00:19:48,299
was thinking about it like 500 years ago

465
00:19:52,010 --> 00:19:50,940
I would be thinking that uh you know

466
00:19:53,510 --> 00:19:52,020
they can't go outside and stuff during

467
00:19:54,770 --> 00:19:53,520
the day it's like it sounds a lot like a

468
00:19:56,390 --> 00:19:54,780
vampire in many ways and then like

469
00:19:58,310 --> 00:19:56,400
sometimes pain not with this individual

470
00:20:00,710 --> 00:19:58,320
the pain can be so bad from them that

471
00:20:02,630 --> 00:20:00,720
that produces hallucinatory effects so

472
00:20:04,190 --> 00:20:02,640
it's like having visions you can't go

473
00:20:07,310 --> 00:20:04,200
outside all this stuff

474
00:20:08,930 --> 00:20:07,320
like there are these real things that

475
00:20:10,130 --> 00:20:08,940
are observed and then they're

476
00:20:12,830 --> 00:20:10,140
interpreted

477
00:20:15,230 --> 00:20:12,840
uh in various ways right like where

478
00:20:18,590 --> 00:20:15,240
where and when it's happening

479
00:20:22,330 --> 00:20:18,600
um like what's your perspective on that

480
00:20:24,890 --> 00:20:22,340
sort of the impulse to see these

481
00:20:26,930 --> 00:20:24,900
transitions manifest themselves in these

482
00:20:28,549 --> 00:20:26,940
uh like monster stories

483
00:20:30,890 --> 00:20:28,559
yeah I think one of the most difficult

484
00:20:33,409 --> 00:20:30,900
transitions we Face perhaps the the the

485
00:20:35,529 --> 00:20:33,419
the most difficult philosophical

486
00:20:38,570 --> 00:20:35,539
transition that we face

487
00:20:43,490 --> 00:20:38,580
is the transition from life to death

488
00:20:45,409 --> 00:20:43,500
it's very very hard to Intuit that

489
00:20:47,630 --> 00:20:45,419
someone it just isn't there anymore

490
00:20:49,250 --> 00:20:47,640
because they're lying there I mean you

491
00:20:50,750 --> 00:20:49,260
know they they don't move voluntarily

492
00:20:52,310 --> 00:20:50,760
anymore they don't speak voluntarily

493
00:20:55,789 --> 00:20:52,320
anymore but they're they're kind of

494
00:20:59,270 --> 00:20:55,799
still there and then they

495
00:21:01,070 --> 00:20:59,280
um they rot slowly and there are all

496
00:21:03,770 --> 00:21:01,080
sorts of religious ideas and religious

497
00:21:06,529 --> 00:21:03,780
models of the self but Encompass a way

498
00:21:08,870 --> 00:21:06,539
that this can happen so usually there's

499
00:21:11,930 --> 00:21:08,880
an intuitive dualism where there are at

500
00:21:13,730 --> 00:21:11,940
least two parts to the um to the person

501
00:21:15,350 --> 00:21:13,740
there could be more actually I mean in

502
00:21:20,390 --> 00:21:15,360
Christianity there's the body and the

503
00:21:23,870 --> 00:21:20,400
Soul uh but in like in in Voodoo

504
00:21:25,070 --> 00:21:23,880
um in Haiti you would have uh what they

505
00:21:26,330 --> 00:21:25,080
call there are two types of what they

506
00:21:26,930 --> 00:21:26,340
call bonage

507
00:21:30,529 --> 00:21:26,940
um

508
00:21:32,710 --> 00:21:30,539
you know big Angels uh and then there's

509
00:21:34,789 --> 00:21:32,720
the the body the court could have

510
00:21:36,289 --> 00:21:34,799
cadaver you know literally the meat that

511
00:21:38,810 --> 00:21:36,299
you're in and then there's the zitual

512
00:21:41,270 --> 00:21:38,820
which is your sort of like your fate

513
00:21:44,390 --> 00:21:41,280
um so it slowly with these various

514
00:21:46,310 --> 00:21:44,400
forces it accounts for the fact that

515
00:21:47,570 --> 00:21:46,320
your soul is separate to your body and

516
00:21:49,730 --> 00:21:47,580
also that there is an animating

517
00:21:51,230 --> 00:21:49,740
principle in your body which leaves it

518
00:21:55,490 --> 00:21:51,240
slowly which accounts for the

519
00:21:56,690 --> 00:21:55,500
decomposition and uh in ancient Egypt I

520
00:21:58,970 --> 00:21:56,700
think you know there was the you know

521
00:22:00,529 --> 00:21:58,980
the car and the bar and you know they

522
00:22:04,310 --> 00:22:00,539
have a multi-dimensional

523
00:22:08,390 --> 00:22:04,320
model of the person as well so it seems

524
00:22:11,210 --> 00:22:08,400
to be counter-intuitive to us that

525
00:22:12,730 --> 00:22:11,220
somebody could just disappear

526
00:22:14,870 --> 00:22:12,740
um so

527
00:22:17,390 --> 00:22:14,880
worship of the ancestors in a

528
00:22:20,270 --> 00:22:17,400
relationship with your ancestors appears

529
00:22:23,270 --> 00:22:20,280
to be the the sort of most uh the

530
00:22:24,529 --> 00:22:23,280
earliest and a very strong form of

531
00:22:26,570 --> 00:22:24,539
religiosity

532
00:22:29,270 --> 00:22:26,580
it's a relationship with people who have

533
00:22:33,590 --> 00:22:29,280
gotten uh and with

534
00:22:39,110 --> 00:22:37,070
um the thought is that the the general

535
00:22:42,710 --> 00:22:39,120
idea is suggested by a guy called

536
00:22:45,830 --> 00:22:42,720
jampukowski that really the specific

537
00:22:47,690 --> 00:22:45,840
ideas have come from Slavic Pagan ideas

538
00:22:51,049 --> 00:22:47,700
and they've been Incorporated with

539
00:22:54,289 --> 00:22:51,059
Orthodox Christianity and the idea is

540
00:22:56,330 --> 00:22:54,299
that uh the the Earth is a mother and so

541
00:22:58,070 --> 00:22:56,340
receives you

542
00:22:59,390 --> 00:22:58,080
um like a mother when you die and that

543
00:23:00,230 --> 00:22:59,400
if you're spat back out there's

544
00:23:03,350 --> 00:23:00,240
something wrong with you there's

545
00:23:05,390 --> 00:23:03,360
something fundamentally morally as skew

546
00:23:08,270 --> 00:23:05,400
you know scans with you

547
00:23:11,090 --> 00:23:08,280
um and another guy called Paul Barber

548
00:23:12,830 --> 00:23:11,100
has written a brilliant book vampires

549
00:23:15,289 --> 00:23:12,840
burial and death where he goes through a

550
00:23:17,630 --> 00:23:15,299
lot of postmortem changes that happen to

551
00:23:19,370 --> 00:23:17,640
a perfectly normal body

552
00:23:21,890 --> 00:23:19,380
and uh

553
00:23:23,870 --> 00:23:21,900
it could be misunderstood by people who

554
00:23:25,549 --> 00:23:23,880
haven't read a book on the subject I

555
00:23:27,409 --> 00:23:25,559
mean you know our ancestors didn't keep

556
00:23:30,230 --> 00:23:27,419
corpses around because they were

557
00:23:32,810 --> 00:23:30,240
Dreadful source of contagion so

558
00:23:35,570 --> 00:23:32,820
um they wouldn't realize that you know

559
00:23:36,770 --> 00:23:35,580
corpse is buried too close to the

560
00:23:38,930 --> 00:23:36,780
surface of the Earth for example

561
00:23:40,850 --> 00:23:38,940
especially in the in the summer can kind

562
00:23:44,210 --> 00:23:40,860
of pop and move because there are air

563
00:23:47,090 --> 00:23:44,220
spaces and stuff in them uh so you know

564
00:23:48,890 --> 00:23:47,100
you develop gases so that an awful lot

565
00:23:51,890 --> 00:23:48,900
of the

566
00:23:54,409 --> 00:23:51,900
um the physical descriptions we hear

567
00:23:57,169 --> 00:23:54,419
associated with folklore vampirism

568
00:24:00,110 --> 00:23:57,179
are congruent with normal post-mortem

569
00:24:02,330 --> 00:24:00,120
changes uh in in people's bodies but

570
00:24:05,510 --> 00:24:02,340
it's also vampirism is really really

571
00:24:07,130 --> 00:24:05,520
associated with epidemic deaths and so

572
00:24:10,190 --> 00:24:07,140
if you have

573
00:24:12,409 --> 00:24:10,200
uh people with very heightened sense of

574
00:24:13,909 --> 00:24:12,419
attention because they are worried about

575
00:24:16,250 --> 00:24:13,919
the mechanism of this death they didn't

576
00:24:17,870 --> 00:24:16,260
know about microbes or viruses they

577
00:24:21,230 --> 00:24:17,880
didn't know they did have a sense of

578
00:24:23,210 --> 00:24:21,240
contagion a lot of a lot of sort of

579
00:24:24,830 --> 00:24:23,220
pre-19th century people had a very very

580
00:24:26,570 --> 00:24:24,840
good sense of contagion keeping things

581
00:24:28,730 --> 00:24:26,580
clean

582
00:24:30,649 --> 00:24:28,740
um but they know that something has

583
00:24:32,690 --> 00:24:30,659
spread among the community

584
00:24:34,490 --> 00:24:32,700
they don't know the mechanism they know

585
00:24:36,230 --> 00:24:34,500
that it spreads amongst families and

586
00:24:38,930 --> 00:24:36,240
then the next thing is the body won't

587
00:24:41,690 --> 00:24:38,940
kind of you know decompose as it should

588
00:24:44,690 --> 00:24:41,700
it's busy moving around in its grave uh

589
00:24:47,149 --> 00:24:44,700
so that's how basically it all comes

590
00:24:49,490 --> 00:24:47,159
together to create vampirism and the

591
00:24:50,990 --> 00:24:49,500
folklore associated with vampirism

592
00:24:53,930 --> 00:24:51,000
it's something that

593
00:24:56,270 --> 00:24:53,940
I touch on a lot with looking at UFOs is

594
00:24:59,570 --> 00:24:56,280
that there's often like a kernel of

595
00:25:00,770 --> 00:24:59,580
Truth to a lot of the claims uh there's

596
00:25:07,549 --> 00:25:00,780
something

597
00:25:10,070 --> 00:25:07,559
that you've talked about before is uh

598
00:25:11,810 --> 00:25:10,080
having sleep paralysis and yeah that's

599
00:25:14,810 --> 00:25:11,820
something I'm pretty familiar with uh

600
00:25:17,330 --> 00:25:14,820
not the paralysis itself but uh hypnopic

601
00:25:19,549 --> 00:25:17,340
hallucinations when I wake up in rare

602
00:25:21,470 --> 00:25:19,559
instances and it's strange because I can

603
00:25:24,110 --> 00:25:21,480
move fully it's like five to ten seconds

604
00:25:27,590 --> 00:25:24,120
I'll see something that's not there and

605
00:25:31,250 --> 00:25:27,600
yeah when I started looking seriously at

606
00:25:33,409 --> 00:25:31,260
these stuff it was shocking to me to see

607
00:25:35,690 --> 00:25:33,419
that there is a huge there are a huge

608
00:25:38,090 --> 00:25:35,700
number of people whose entire like

609
00:25:40,789 --> 00:25:38,100
professional careers are dedicated to

610
00:25:43,850 --> 00:25:40,799
reporting these experiences uh and

611
00:25:47,210 --> 00:25:43,860
interpreting them under various uh sort

612
00:25:49,370 --> 00:25:47,220
of Supernatural Frameworks yeah and so

613
00:25:53,029 --> 00:25:49,380
like there's such a distinction there

614
00:25:55,970 --> 00:25:53,039
from observation to interpretation what

615
00:25:59,870 --> 00:25:55,980
would you be able to potentially uh

616
00:26:02,510 --> 00:25:59,880
describe a little bit about how you uh

617
00:26:06,649 --> 00:26:02,520
within your own mind shifted from

618
00:26:09,769 --> 00:26:06,659
believing in Ghosts to becoming the

619
00:26:11,690 --> 00:26:09,779
editor of the top like skepticity in

620
00:26:15,350 --> 00:26:11,700
England at UK

621
00:26:18,169 --> 00:26:15,360
yeah um well I had I was fortunate

622
00:26:21,289 --> 00:26:18,179
enough to uh grow up with a load of mad

623
00:26:22,730 --> 00:26:21,299
aunties and they all believed they all

624
00:26:23,930 --> 00:26:22,740
believed in this stuff it was funny my

625
00:26:26,269 --> 00:26:23,940
mother was very responsible woman

626
00:26:28,190 --> 00:26:26,279
wouldn't let me watch horror movies in

627
00:26:30,950 --> 00:26:28,200
case they walked by fragile little mind

628
00:26:33,529 --> 00:26:30,960
but then she would take me to talk to

629
00:26:37,190 --> 00:26:33,539
these women who would tell me the most

630
00:26:39,769 --> 00:26:37,200
blood curdling stories and

631
00:26:42,230 --> 00:26:39,779
um so it had a tremendous effect on me

632
00:26:44,570 --> 00:26:42,240
and and I I read

633
00:26:46,130 --> 00:26:44,580
I obviously you you sort of you read

634
00:26:47,210 --> 00:26:46,140
every trashy magazine you can get your

635
00:26:50,090 --> 00:26:47,220
hands on

636
00:26:52,250 --> 00:26:50,100
and uh I read a book called The Black

637
00:26:55,010 --> 00:26:52,260
Arts by Richard Cavendish now Richard

638
00:26:57,169 --> 00:26:55,020
Cavendish was the editor of a series of

639
00:26:59,930 --> 00:26:57,179
magazines very very good compendium

640
00:27:03,049 --> 00:26:59,940
magazines called man myth and Magic

641
00:27:04,730 --> 00:27:03,059
and he didn't believe in any of this and

642
00:27:07,070 --> 00:27:04,740
I wasn't allowed to read a book called

643
00:27:10,370 --> 00:27:07,080
The Black Arts so I had to read it um

644
00:27:12,409 --> 00:27:10,380
quietly under the covers at night and uh

645
00:27:14,990 --> 00:27:12,419
it was the first time I think I'd been

646
00:27:18,529 --> 00:27:15,000
introduced to the idea that

647
00:27:21,950 --> 00:27:18,539
a lot of ritual magic was

648
00:27:24,769 --> 00:27:21,960
was actually in rather orderly

649
00:27:26,690 --> 00:27:24,779
um body of knowledge and not all of it

650
00:27:29,450 --> 00:27:26,700
was accurate all of it really wasn't

651
00:27:31,490 --> 00:27:29,460
particularly accurate but it was kind of

652
00:27:33,289 --> 00:27:31,500
the attempts the beginnings of the

653
00:27:36,110 --> 00:27:33,299
attempts of the philosophies of

654
00:27:38,269 --> 00:27:36,120
philosophy of science really that's how

655
00:27:40,850 --> 00:27:38,279
you end up with people as clever and

656
00:27:43,190 --> 00:27:40,860
distinguished as Isaac Newton being into

657
00:27:44,630 --> 00:27:43,200
both Alchemy and

658
00:27:46,630 --> 00:27:44,640
physics

659
00:27:48,649 --> 00:27:46,640
because those two weren't completely

660
00:27:50,630 --> 00:27:48,659
disambiguated at that point in history

661
00:27:56,090 --> 00:27:50,640
so

662
00:27:59,810 --> 00:27:56,100
I was aware that all of this stuff

663
00:28:02,630 --> 00:27:59,820
wasn't completely random nonsense

664
00:28:04,310 --> 00:28:02,640
um and then I think if you stop reading

665
00:28:07,070 --> 00:28:04,320
the Trashy magazines and you start

666
00:28:09,950 --> 00:28:07,080
reading the books

667
00:28:11,510 --> 00:28:09,960
it's unavoidable really you can look

668
00:28:14,390 --> 00:28:11,520
into the history of things and the

669
00:28:15,830 --> 00:28:14,400
anthropology and uh

670
00:28:18,649 --> 00:28:15,840
you understand that people aren't dumb

671
00:28:20,269 --> 00:28:18,659
but that we do make mistakes we are not

672
00:28:24,110 --> 00:28:20,279
you know we're built for survival not

673
00:28:26,990 --> 00:28:24,120
truth so we we make very regular

674
00:28:29,510 --> 00:28:27,000
um perceptual mistakes and in addition

675
00:28:32,750 --> 00:28:29,520
we uh

676
00:28:34,909 --> 00:28:32,760
we live in a very sort of atypical

677
00:28:37,190 --> 00:28:34,919
neural environment you know we can think

678
00:28:39,769 --> 00:28:37,200
about things in an abstract way uh my

679
00:28:41,570 --> 00:28:39,779
dog is lovely but she she doesn't do

680
00:28:44,330 --> 00:28:41,580
that we do that because we have language

681
00:28:46,130 --> 00:28:44,340
and we can think about time and what's

682
00:28:47,570 --> 00:28:46,140
going to happen we can contemplate our

683
00:28:48,590 --> 00:28:47,580
own deaths in the way that my dog

684
00:28:51,110 --> 00:28:48,600
doesn't

685
00:28:53,630 --> 00:28:51,120
um and and we have a social process we

686
00:28:57,890 --> 00:28:53,640
and those social processes get involved

687
00:28:59,510 --> 00:28:57,900
getting engaged in creating stories uh

688
00:29:01,909 --> 00:28:59,520
and and

689
00:29:03,590 --> 00:29:01,919
you know next thing is you have a

690
00:29:05,510 --> 00:29:03,600
culture and the culture not only

691
00:29:10,850 --> 00:29:05,520
includes

692
00:29:13,970 --> 00:29:10,860
thing that makes you trip over and bash

693
00:29:16,789 --> 00:29:13,980
your nose or makes you catch a disease

694
00:29:18,289 --> 00:29:16,799
or you know you have to account for the

695
00:29:20,750 --> 00:29:18,299
stuff that happens to you the bad stuff

696
00:29:24,350 --> 00:29:20,760
that happens to you too

697
00:29:25,970 --> 00:29:24,360
absolutely and so I see that a lot uh as

698
00:29:27,590 --> 00:29:25,980
we I mentioned just in the last thing

699
00:29:29,690 --> 00:29:27,600
that a lot of people have these

700
00:29:32,570 --> 00:29:29,700
experiences and then they interpret them

701
00:29:34,430 --> 00:29:32,580
based on the subjective framework uh

702
00:29:36,350 --> 00:29:34,440
that they're working with uh you know

703
00:29:38,630 --> 00:29:36,360
and those interpretations can be

704
00:29:41,029 --> 00:29:38,640
absolutely harmless or they can be

705
00:29:44,029 --> 00:29:41,039
harmful and something I've sort of grown

706
00:29:46,310 --> 00:29:44,039
to appreciate more as I uh you know just

707
00:29:48,529 --> 00:29:46,320
get older is that

708
00:29:50,450 --> 00:29:48,539
um the values that you share with

709
00:29:52,909 --> 00:29:50,460
somebody are often a lot more important

710
00:29:54,769 --> 00:29:52,919
than sort of agreeing on these like sort

711
00:29:58,370 --> 00:29:54,779
of technical details

712
00:29:59,510 --> 00:29:58,380
um oh yeah and like so like in your

713
00:30:01,909 --> 00:29:59,520
personal life

714
00:30:04,730 --> 00:30:01,919
is is your primary like do you have

715
00:30:07,909 --> 00:30:04,740
close relationships with uh people who

716
00:30:10,549 --> 00:30:07,919
believe uh deeply in the uh oh yeah

717
00:30:13,310 --> 00:30:10,559
spiritual and uh maybe uh would you be

718
00:30:15,950 --> 00:30:13,320
able to talk just a little bit about how

719
00:30:18,230 --> 00:30:15,960
that works on a social level uh just for

720
00:30:21,230 --> 00:30:18,240
the viewers uh maybe as a model or a

721
00:30:23,510 --> 00:30:21,240
frame like do you do you sort of have

722
00:30:25,070 --> 00:30:23,520
positive engagement on those or do you

723
00:30:27,169 --> 00:30:25,080
mainly avoid them just depend on the

724
00:30:28,610 --> 00:30:27,179
person

725
00:30:30,590 --> 00:30:28,620
um no I think I tend to have positive

726
00:30:32,769 --> 00:30:30,600
engagement with them I would have a very

727
00:30:35,090 --> 00:30:32,779
hard time

728
00:30:38,690 --> 00:30:35,100
admiring and being a friend with

729
00:30:39,889 --> 00:30:38,700
somebody who charged a lot of money uh

730
00:30:44,810 --> 00:30:39,899
you know

731
00:30:47,149 --> 00:30:44,820
telling people about their dead

732
00:30:48,950 --> 00:30:47,159
relatives so I don't think I could

733
00:30:50,810 --> 00:30:48,960
manage with that but people having

734
00:30:52,490 --> 00:30:50,820
personal beliefs knows absolutely fine

735
00:30:54,830 --> 00:30:52,500
you just talk about them you know I say

736
00:30:57,049 --> 00:30:54,840
I offer them

737
00:30:59,149 --> 00:30:57,059
potential explanations of their

738
00:31:00,470 --> 00:30:59,159
experiences that aren't Supernatural and

739
00:31:02,450 --> 00:31:00,480
they either go for them or they don't

740
00:31:04,190 --> 00:31:02,460
and also I can't be reductive about

741
00:31:05,810 --> 00:31:04,200
everything I mean I wasn't there I don't

742
00:31:08,210 --> 00:31:05,820
have the evidence all I have is their

743
00:31:12,470 --> 00:31:08,220
personal

744
00:31:14,690 --> 00:31:12,480
about what happened to them so I think

745
00:31:16,549 --> 00:31:14,700
you can talk to people I mean the only

746
00:31:19,370 --> 00:31:16,559
people you can't really talk to are um

747
00:31:21,769 --> 00:31:19,380
are fundamentalists of of any stripe you

748
00:31:24,529 --> 00:31:21,779
know the fundamentalists

749
00:31:27,169 --> 00:31:24,539
you know with their religion or with uh

750
00:31:30,529 --> 00:31:27,179
with other beliefs

751
00:31:34,269 --> 00:31:30,539
so and with uh with the belief in we

752
00:31:37,730 --> 00:31:34,279
mentioned briefly like ritual uh magic

753
00:31:39,649 --> 00:31:37,740
especially modern a cult practices I I

754
00:31:42,110 --> 00:31:39,659
didn't really ever look into it until we

755
00:31:44,029 --> 00:31:42,120
had Marco Visconti on I thought that was

756
00:31:45,830 --> 00:31:44,039
a really positive conversation I found

757
00:31:48,110 --> 00:31:45,840
it really interesting and uh he was

758
00:31:51,769 --> 00:31:48,120
saying uh fundamentally it doesn't

759
00:31:54,590 --> 00:31:51,779
necessarily matter where the power is

760
00:31:55,909 --> 00:31:54,600
coming from it's a set of uh originals

761
00:31:58,669 --> 00:31:55,919
and things like that I thought that

762
00:32:01,610 --> 00:31:58,679
indeed I never knew that at all and then

763
00:32:05,630 --> 00:32:01,620
I dove into a little bit and I found

764
00:32:08,870 --> 00:32:05,640
like people describing rituals that help

765
00:32:11,630 --> 00:32:08,880
regulate your daily life how you deal

766
00:32:14,870 --> 00:32:11,640
with stress things come up and you can

767
00:32:15,889 --> 00:32:14,880
sort of sit down and meditate on the

768
00:32:17,450 --> 00:32:15,899
specific

769
00:32:20,570 --> 00:32:17,460
solution

770
00:32:24,049 --> 00:32:20,580
and it's just being described as magic

771
00:32:25,730 --> 00:32:24,059
yeah totally I mean and and you don't

772
00:32:27,230 --> 00:32:25,740
you know you don't have to go for one

773
00:32:28,330 --> 00:32:27,240
mechanism or the other it may well be

774
00:32:31,190 --> 00:32:28,340
that you

775
00:32:32,990 --> 00:32:31,200
uh you know the concentration on a

776
00:32:34,610 --> 00:32:33,000
specific outcome is the thing that helps

777
00:32:36,230 --> 00:32:34,620
it to manifest that that's purely

778
00:32:37,789 --> 00:32:36,240
psychological mechanism or it might be

779
00:32:40,130 --> 00:32:37,799
that you know you've asked a fairy to

780
00:32:43,250 --> 00:32:40,140
help you and the fairy has helped you so

781
00:32:45,409 --> 00:32:43,260
um and a lot of I I tend to I tend to

782
00:32:47,330 --> 00:32:45,419
get on with pagans actually from Modern

783
00:32:48,590 --> 00:32:47,340
pagans uh

784
00:32:50,630 --> 00:32:48,600
uh

785
00:32:52,130 --> 00:32:50,640
actually you know and I I don't know

786
00:32:53,630 --> 00:32:52,140
what mechanisms they ascribe to what

787
00:32:55,850 --> 00:32:53,640
they do but rituals are important for

788
00:32:58,190 --> 00:32:55,860
human beings even if you don't even if

789
00:32:59,990 --> 00:32:58,200
you aren't religious you might have a

790
00:33:02,389 --> 00:33:00,000
secular marriage

791
00:33:04,370 --> 00:33:02,399
um just because you know it's an event

792
00:33:05,990 --> 00:33:04,380
it's a ritual it's a way of saying to

793
00:33:08,389 --> 00:33:06,000
your community

794
00:33:10,730 --> 00:33:08,399
we too people want to be regarded as

795
00:33:12,470 --> 00:33:10,740
being together in the future and rituals

796
00:33:14,810 --> 00:33:12,480
are important

797
00:33:17,029 --> 00:33:14,820
yes they are I've experienced that

798
00:33:18,889 --> 00:33:17,039
myself especially with starting up a

799
00:33:22,789 --> 00:33:18,899
firearm business and things like that

800
00:33:25,190 --> 00:33:22,799
and just getting into a Groove and um

801
00:33:27,950 --> 00:33:25,200
that ritualized process without even

802
00:33:30,830 --> 00:33:27,960
having the words to label it previously

803
00:33:33,169 --> 00:33:30,840
it just sort of manifests itself as a

804
00:33:35,210 --> 00:33:33,179
way of sort of comfortably moving

805
00:33:37,370 --> 00:33:35,220
through and uh and keeping things moving

806
00:33:40,130 --> 00:33:37,380
in a way where like the disruption from

807
00:33:42,350 --> 00:33:40,140
the lockdowns which I did fully support

808
00:33:45,649 --> 00:33:42,360
despite them uh really causing a

809
00:33:48,110 --> 00:33:45,659
negative impact on me and uh you know it

810
00:33:50,930 --> 00:33:48,120
was a huge shift in not only just from

811
00:33:52,669 --> 00:33:50,940
like all of the bigger fears it was like

812
00:33:54,710 --> 00:33:52,679
the daily Interruption and you know I

813
00:33:57,110 --> 00:33:54,720
had a couple uh like why

814
00:33:59,810 --> 00:33:57,120
Partners on the business at the time was

815
00:34:02,210 --> 00:33:59,820
uh we and I'll move to the farm to work

816
00:34:05,870 --> 00:34:02,220
together in isolation and he was

817
00:34:07,850 --> 00:34:05,880
describing to me how he just wishes he

818
00:34:10,369 --> 00:34:07,860
could go back to his uh daily routine

819
00:34:12,470 --> 00:34:10,379
more than anything and yeah it was

820
00:34:13,609 --> 00:34:12,480
really hitting home there so you know

821
00:34:17,389 --> 00:34:13,619
there's something

822
00:34:19,849 --> 00:34:17,399
deep in that and uh well I also run my

823
00:34:21,770 --> 00:34:19,859
own business and and as you know

824
00:34:23,389 --> 00:34:21,780
um if you if you're self-employed you

825
00:34:24,710 --> 00:34:23,399
have to invent your own rituals you have

826
00:34:28,190 --> 00:34:24,720
to decide when you get up in the morning

827
00:34:29,570 --> 00:34:28,200
you have to uh you know decide when

828
00:34:31,010 --> 00:34:29,580
you're going to go shopping because it's

829
00:34:32,510 --> 00:34:31,020
too easy to go shopping in the middle of

830
00:34:34,250 --> 00:34:32,520
the day when you should be working you

831
00:34:36,230 --> 00:34:34,260
know it's stuff like that that actually

832
00:34:37,970 --> 00:34:36,240
that keeps you on the straight narrow

833
00:34:40,070 --> 00:34:37,980
otherwise

834
00:34:41,750 --> 00:34:40,080
you know yeah you need to invent your

835
00:34:45,710 --> 00:34:41,760
own rituals you need to invent your own

836
00:34:49,609 --> 00:34:47,810
you know just uh remember it a little

837
00:34:51,409 --> 00:34:49,619
thing about like I said this observation

838
00:34:53,629 --> 00:34:51,419
versus interpretation thing I go on

839
00:34:55,609 --> 00:34:53,639
about this a lot on this show I think

840
00:34:58,250 --> 00:34:55,619
it's so important really I think that

841
00:35:00,950 --> 00:34:58,260
it's really the key is uh having people

842
00:35:03,290 --> 00:35:00,960
recognize this distinction

843
00:35:05,030 --> 00:35:03,300
um now it let me think how do I

844
00:35:07,310 --> 00:35:05,040
introduce this I find this to be kind of

845
00:35:11,150 --> 00:35:07,320
an interesting thing so I consider

846
00:35:13,069 --> 00:35:11,160
myself to be a a realist uh I think that

847
00:35:15,109 --> 00:35:13,079
it's likely I wouldn't say I insist on

848
00:35:16,670 --> 00:35:15,119
it I think it's likely that you know

849
00:35:18,950 --> 00:35:16,680
physical things around us are

850
00:35:21,890 --> 00:35:18,960
fundamentally real in some sense I think

851
00:35:24,349 --> 00:35:21,900
that then there is a very strong

852
00:35:27,950 --> 00:35:24,359
obligation to argue against that however

853
00:35:30,410 --> 00:35:27,960
when I engage with uh physicists it's uh

854
00:35:32,630 --> 00:35:30,420
I don't reject it but the modern uh you

855
00:35:35,810 --> 00:35:32,640
know consensus approach is that reality

856
00:35:38,210 --> 00:35:35,820
is it's an anti-realist philosophy that

857
00:35:41,270 --> 00:35:38,220
uh is uh the foundation of modern

858
00:35:44,030 --> 00:35:41,280
physics the idea of superposition that

859
00:35:46,849 --> 00:35:44,040
the object doesn't exist materially

860
00:35:49,490 --> 00:35:46,859
until it's measured that

861
00:35:52,089 --> 00:35:49,500
you know raises some issues uh sometimes

862
00:35:55,790 --> 00:35:52,099
for me like a lot of the time there's a

863
00:35:57,650 --> 00:35:55,800
response to sort of these basic points

864
00:35:58,609 --> 00:35:57,660
based on empiricism scientific methods

865
00:35:59,990 --> 00:35:58,619
and things when I'm saying something

866
00:36:02,390 --> 00:36:00,000
like that and then the response is like

867
00:36:05,030 --> 00:36:02,400
well on the quantum level teleportation

868
00:36:06,530 --> 00:36:05,040
is real so like you know you're saying

869
00:36:07,370 --> 00:36:06,540
this isn't real but we have this thing

870
00:36:09,230 --> 00:36:07,380
here

871
00:36:13,370 --> 00:36:09,240
and then I look into it and then they're

872
00:36:16,370 --> 00:36:13,380
like sufficient plausible realist

873
00:36:18,890 --> 00:36:16,380
interpretations uh you know I won't go

874
00:36:20,210 --> 00:36:18,900
into obviously the details but when

875
00:36:21,950 --> 00:36:20,220
there are plausible realist

876
00:36:23,630 --> 00:36:21,960
interpretations and the mainstream

877
00:36:26,990 --> 00:36:23,640
guiding philosophy of the scientific

878
00:36:29,290 --> 00:36:27,000
Community is anti-realist it kind of

879
00:36:32,089 --> 00:36:29,300
concerns me on a sort of underlying

880
00:36:34,490 --> 00:36:32,099
existential or epistemological

881
00:36:36,109 --> 00:36:34,500
combination of those things uh have you

882
00:36:37,550 --> 00:36:36,119
sort of encountered this at all and uh

883
00:36:39,530 --> 00:36:37,560
how do you approach that when people

884
00:36:42,349 --> 00:36:39,540
start bringing up like the quantum world

885
00:36:44,030 --> 00:36:42,359
to justify belief in these sort of more

886
00:36:46,370 --> 00:36:44,040
extreme things

887
00:36:47,750 --> 00:36:46,380
well I think there are two ways is first

888
00:36:49,790 --> 00:36:47,760
of all we don't live at the quantum

889
00:36:52,069 --> 00:36:49,800
level so

890
00:36:54,410 --> 00:36:52,079
um you know yeah yeah things are pretty

891
00:36:57,770 --> 00:36:54,420
funky elsewhere yeah we know that I mean

892
00:36:59,390 --> 00:36:57,780
you know I I I can't I can't grow my

893
00:37:01,130 --> 00:36:59,400
plants in the Sahara it doesn't mean to

894
00:37:04,970 --> 00:37:01,140
say I can't grow them here you know I

895
00:37:07,490 --> 00:37:04,980
live in a place where it rains so uh so

896
00:37:08,930 --> 00:37:07,500
to a degree it kind of doesn't matter it

897
00:37:12,170 --> 00:37:08,940
doesn't apply and and we know that

898
00:37:16,310 --> 00:37:12,180
Newtonian physics still works up here

899
00:37:18,950 --> 00:37:16,320
so um that's one thing the second thing

900
00:37:20,270 --> 00:37:18,960
is I don't think when we don't know

901
00:37:24,290 --> 00:37:20,280
something

902
00:37:27,890 --> 00:37:24,300
uh I don't think people get to just

903
00:37:30,950 --> 00:37:27,900
transfer every desire they have on to

904
00:37:33,410 --> 00:37:30,960
this unknown model it's just like oh

905
00:37:35,210 --> 00:37:33,420
well you know subatomic physics is is

906
00:37:37,010 --> 00:37:35,220
pretty funky therefore ghosts exist

907
00:37:38,390 --> 00:37:37,020
because I think there's probably a

908
00:37:41,150 --> 00:37:38,400
mechanism in there well you've got to be

909
00:37:42,950 --> 00:37:41,160
a bit more specific than that and so

910
00:37:44,270 --> 00:37:42,960
it's you know I think there's an awful

911
00:37:46,630 --> 00:37:44,280
lot of um

912
00:37:49,430 --> 00:37:46,640
wish fulfillment and and wish

913
00:37:50,930 --> 00:37:49,440
transference really uh on this subject

914
00:37:52,370 --> 00:37:50,940
as soon as I mean it started with the

915
00:37:55,970 --> 00:37:52,380
Tower of physics didn't it was that in

916
00:38:00,190 --> 00:37:55,980
the 1960s or the 1970s uh I don't know

917
00:38:02,390 --> 00:38:00,200
that one yeah um and you just

918
00:38:04,010 --> 00:38:02,400
you know the the idea is that you come

919
00:38:06,010 --> 00:38:04,020
up with a hypothesis

920
00:38:08,630 --> 00:38:06,020
and you test it

921
00:38:11,089 --> 00:38:08,640
and you find out whether or not it's

922
00:38:13,849 --> 00:38:11,099
probably right and and

923
00:38:15,829 --> 00:38:13,859
you can't you know a hypothesis isn't

924
00:38:17,750 --> 00:38:15,839
just an all-purpose wish fulfillment

925
00:38:20,030 --> 00:38:17,760
it's just like ah things are weird

926
00:38:22,190 --> 00:38:20,040
subatomically therefore

927
00:38:25,550 --> 00:38:22,200
you know I mean I'm also quite often it

928
00:38:26,930 --> 00:38:25,560
might account for ghosts but it might

929
00:38:31,390 --> 00:38:26,940
even account for poltergeists who

930
00:38:33,950 --> 00:38:31,400
doesn't count for werewolves so how come

931
00:38:35,450 --> 00:38:33,960
you know how come an awful lot of the

932
00:38:38,569 --> 00:38:35,460
psychological

933
00:38:40,849 --> 00:38:38,579
um models that we have account for

934
00:38:42,290 --> 00:38:40,859
some Poltergeist stuff and some werewolf

935
00:38:44,329 --> 00:38:42,300
stuff

936
00:38:46,250 --> 00:38:44,339
um but your explanation doesn't account

937
00:38:48,890 --> 00:38:46,260
for the werewolves so you know get them

938
00:38:50,810 --> 00:38:48,900
which is more likely I so I I think it's

939
00:38:53,089 --> 00:38:50,820
those two things

940
00:38:54,950 --> 00:38:53,099
yeah okay are you okay that your uh

941
00:38:57,890 --> 00:38:54,960
reference there just remind me are you

942
00:39:02,990 --> 00:38:57,900
familiar at all with the

943
00:39:05,750 --> 00:39:03,000
trans merger of the UFO Community with

944
00:39:08,750 --> 00:39:05,760
the broader paranormal community in

945
00:39:10,670 --> 00:39:08,760
terms of like Dr Jacques ballet sort of

946
00:39:12,410 --> 00:39:10,680
starting in the 70s saying like it's all

947
00:39:14,750 --> 00:39:12,420
the same thing

948
00:39:17,510 --> 00:39:14,760
um yeah and we've got like accounts of

949
00:39:20,390 --> 00:39:17,520
basically poltergeists being combined

950
00:39:22,910 --> 00:39:20,400
with UFO phenomena people and people

951
00:39:25,849 --> 00:39:22,920
reporting at least one account of seeing

952
00:39:27,970 --> 00:39:25,859
uh like a dog man which is sort of like

953
00:39:31,670 --> 00:39:27,980
a werewolf um

954
00:39:33,829 --> 00:39:31,680
so there's this recognition implicitly

955
00:39:36,530 --> 00:39:33,839
that there's it's like kind of all the

956
00:39:39,890 --> 00:39:36,540
same thing yeah like God it's almost

957
00:39:44,030 --> 00:39:39,900
like it's anomalies in human perception

958
00:39:45,829 --> 00:39:44,040
yeah almost and uh it's yeah I mean

959
00:39:48,230 --> 00:39:45,839
there's also sleep paralysis is another

960
00:39:50,210 --> 00:39:48,240
big one as well a vestibular Sensations

961
00:39:52,010 --> 00:39:50,220
when you're going off to sleep they're

962
00:39:54,890 --> 00:39:52,020
an awful lot of people who are um

963
00:39:57,109 --> 00:39:54,900
kidnapped by UFOs who feel that they

964
00:39:58,790 --> 00:39:57,119
have been floating above their beds and

965
00:40:02,150 --> 00:39:58,800
being taken through

966
00:40:04,310 --> 00:40:02,160
or if you've been spun in a room and

967
00:40:05,690 --> 00:40:04,320
that's happened to people who've been

968
00:40:07,370 --> 00:40:05,700
you know attacked by vampires or

969
00:40:10,790 --> 00:40:07,380
attacked by ghosts as well and it's

970
00:40:12,710 --> 00:40:10,800
typical totally typical stuff vestibular

971
00:40:14,870 --> 00:40:12,720
stuff it's just to do with balance in

972
00:40:17,030 --> 00:40:14,880
your self-orientation

973
00:40:18,890 --> 00:40:17,040
um that goes a bit funky as you go to

974
00:40:22,849 --> 00:40:18,900
sleep or as you wake up in the middle of

975
00:40:24,109 --> 00:40:22,859
the night so uh yeah I mean it it makes

976
00:40:26,089 --> 00:40:24,119
sense to me that these there's

977
00:40:28,190 --> 00:40:26,099
overlapping

978
00:40:28,849 --> 00:40:28,200
um phenomena and explanations in these

979
00:40:31,970 --> 00:40:28,859
things

980
00:40:34,609 --> 00:40:31,980
right okay well and so a very brief

981
00:40:36,109 --> 00:40:34,619
anecdote just a couple days ago and this

982
00:40:38,930 --> 00:40:36,119
relates to interpretation versus

983
00:40:40,970 --> 00:40:38,940
observation my uh my wife and I were

984
00:40:43,550 --> 00:40:40,980
walking down the street to just go to

985
00:40:45,710 --> 00:40:43,560
walk around downtown a little bit and uh

986
00:40:48,349 --> 00:40:45,720
there's this uh Heritage building very

987
00:40:50,950 --> 00:40:48,359
large old like Mansion like it's such a

988
00:40:53,270 --> 00:40:50,960
classic kind of like it's more yeah yeah

989
00:40:55,190 --> 00:40:53,280
and you know it's not considered haunted

990
00:40:57,050 --> 00:40:55,200
but uh it's creepy at night it's very

991
00:40:59,210 --> 00:40:57,060
dark and stuff we walk right past it and

992
00:41:01,609 --> 00:40:59,220
uh as we were sort of walking by there's

993
00:41:04,310 --> 00:41:01,619
this big front gate up a stone stairs

994
00:41:05,810 --> 00:41:04,320
and I like I could hear a bell ringing

995
00:41:07,190 --> 00:41:05,820
right at the front gate and I was like

996
00:41:08,210 --> 00:41:07,200
and I've been there so many times it's

997
00:41:09,530 --> 00:41:08,220
like I know there's not a bell there and

998
00:41:11,870 --> 00:41:09,540
I'm like there's something weird there

999
00:41:13,970 --> 00:41:11,880
that I like laughed out loud because I

1000
00:41:15,470 --> 00:41:13,980
was like that's way too perfect like if

1001
00:41:18,050 --> 00:41:15,480
somebody believed in ghosts they'd have

1002
00:41:20,089 --> 00:41:18,060
a panic attack and uh so we kept walking

1003
00:41:21,470 --> 00:41:20,099
and then a couple seconds later out of

1004
00:41:23,630 --> 00:41:21,480
the corner of my eye I see something

1005
00:41:26,030 --> 00:41:23,640
running at me from the gate and I'm like

1006
00:41:27,609 --> 00:41:26,040
wow like I jumped and it was just a cat

1007
00:41:30,950 --> 00:41:27,619
Bell on the

1008
00:41:33,290 --> 00:41:30,960
and uh but I I jumped when I saw

1009
00:41:35,569 --> 00:41:33,300
something physically coming at me

1010
00:41:37,069 --> 00:41:35,579
um and I and I had decided not even to

1011
00:41:38,510 --> 00:41:37,079
mention the Bell as we were walking by

1012
00:41:40,010 --> 00:41:38,520
to my wife just because uh like she

1013
00:41:41,210 --> 00:41:40,020
doesn't believe in ghosts now but she

1014
00:41:42,410 --> 00:41:41,220
grew up believing in them so she's a

1015
00:41:44,569 --> 00:41:42,420
good he doesn't want to go to like the

1016
00:41:47,270 --> 00:41:44,579
graveyard at night yeah

1017
00:41:49,250 --> 00:41:47,280
but the uh you know so there's this uh

1018
00:41:50,569 --> 00:41:49,260
con sort of like the observation and

1019
00:41:52,310 --> 00:41:50,579
then interpretation but then I still

1020
00:41:55,130 --> 00:41:52,320
reflexively

1021
00:41:56,810 --> 00:41:55,140
um reacted after hearing the thing right

1022
00:41:59,750 --> 00:41:56,820
so it's like it's like building so

1023
00:42:03,050 --> 00:41:59,760
strongly would you be able to like

1024
00:42:05,150 --> 00:42:03,060
identify why it is now like when we have

1025
00:42:06,770 --> 00:42:05,160
sufficient explanations for most of

1026
00:42:08,210 --> 00:42:06,780
these sort of like you know like the

1027
00:42:10,849 --> 00:42:08,220
darkest stuff that I don't think people

1028
00:42:13,069 --> 00:42:10,859
would want to believe fundamentally is

1029
00:42:15,290 --> 00:42:13,079
real like the darkest stuff but they

1030
00:42:17,329 --> 00:42:15,300
still do like what do you what do you

1031
00:42:19,370 --> 00:42:17,339
interpret is happening there

1032
00:42:20,390 --> 00:42:19,380
well I think the Assumption there is

1033
00:42:24,970 --> 00:42:20,400
that

1034
00:42:28,130 --> 00:42:24,980
um belief is a conscious process so uh

1035
00:42:32,089 --> 00:42:28,140
it can be consciously dispensed with

1036
00:42:34,069 --> 00:42:32,099
and I think that probably isn't the case

1037
00:42:35,870 --> 00:42:34,079
um an awful lot of the interpretations

1038
00:42:37,790 --> 00:42:35,880
and the mythology and the specific

1039
00:42:40,550 --> 00:42:37,800
stories do happen in our conscious mind

1040
00:42:42,069 --> 00:42:40,560
but really our mind our brains are

1041
00:42:45,829 --> 00:42:42,079
responding to

1042
00:42:48,410 --> 00:42:45,839
subconscious stimuli and to subconscious

1043
00:42:49,609 --> 00:42:48,420
ways of processing things and you know

1044
00:42:53,829 --> 00:42:49,619
when you learn something really young

1045
00:42:57,230 --> 00:42:53,839
it's very hard to unlearn it uh

1046
00:43:00,170 --> 00:42:57,240
I I think that we

1047
00:43:01,730 --> 00:43:00,180
you know an awful lot of these these

1048
00:43:04,130 --> 00:43:01,740
things we have like seeing perceiving

1049
00:43:06,230 --> 00:43:04,140
Agency for example

1050
00:43:08,390 --> 00:43:06,240
um if you even if you don't believe in

1051
00:43:10,790 --> 00:43:08,400
anything and and I don't I mean I've

1052
00:43:12,230 --> 00:43:10,800
slept in haunted castles and stuff it

1053
00:43:14,210 --> 00:43:12,240
was fine

1054
00:43:16,190 --> 00:43:14,220
um and even if you don't believe in

1055
00:43:20,569 --> 00:43:16,200
agency oh sorry if you don't believe in

1056
00:43:23,089 --> 00:43:20,579
ghosts you if you hear a noise in the

1057
00:43:25,309 --> 00:43:23,099
middle of the night you

1058
00:43:26,450 --> 00:43:25,319
you're alert you know you're worried

1059
00:43:27,650 --> 00:43:26,460
that it's something and that it's

1060
00:43:29,450 --> 00:43:27,660
something with a mind and it's something

1061
00:43:31,190 --> 00:43:29,460
with an intention

1062
00:43:33,890 --> 00:43:31,200
and that it has

1063
00:43:35,630 --> 00:43:33,900
uh you know it has intentions to do

1064
00:43:37,550 --> 00:43:35,640
something so

1065
00:43:39,890 --> 00:43:37,560
and and also you could better believe

1066
00:43:42,349 --> 00:43:39,900
that too because you know frankly your

1067
00:43:44,150 --> 00:43:42,359
genes aren't that great if you don't you

1068
00:43:45,410 --> 00:43:44,160
know you're you're gonna pass uh you're

1069
00:43:47,150 --> 00:43:45,420
gonna pass on your genes to some

1070
00:43:49,990 --> 00:43:47,160
incredibly complacent kids who are going

1071
00:43:52,910 --> 00:43:50,000
to walk in front of traffic so

1072
00:43:55,730 --> 00:43:52,920
these processes like that that all come

1073
00:43:58,309 --> 00:43:55,740
together to make us hyper attentive to

1074
00:44:01,450 --> 00:43:58,319
to potential hazards in our environment

1075
00:44:04,609 --> 00:44:01,460
and I don't think you can completely

1076
00:44:07,130 --> 00:44:04,619
deprogram people from there

1077
00:44:09,050 --> 00:44:07,140
right I mean I suspect there would be

1078
00:44:10,309 --> 00:44:09,060
issues if people were completely

1079
00:44:12,950 --> 00:44:10,319
deprogrammed like you mentioned like

1080
00:44:15,770 --> 00:44:12,960
there's a healthy level of uh being

1081
00:44:17,210 --> 00:44:15,780
alerted to something unusual uh you know

1082
00:44:19,010 --> 00:44:17,220
the bump in the night is a good example

1083
00:44:20,690 --> 00:44:19,020
could be the dog or it could be breaking

1084
00:44:22,430 --> 00:44:20,700
in or you know it's unlikely for it to

1085
00:44:24,829 --> 00:44:22,440
be breaking enter but you know when

1086
00:44:26,750 --> 00:44:24,839
there's a risk of catastrophic failure

1087
00:44:29,569 --> 00:44:26,760
then it's good to at least be aware of

1088
00:44:32,030 --> 00:44:29,579
and consider that risk well funny enough

1089
00:44:33,589 --> 00:44:32,040
a few years ago now my partner and I

1090
00:44:35,690 --> 00:44:33,599
were working in Prague and we were

1091
00:44:38,210 --> 00:44:35,700
working so hard God we were working so

1092
00:44:39,829 --> 00:44:38,220
hard we were so tired and we both had

1093
00:44:42,410 --> 00:44:39,839
all sorts of sleep disturbances sleep

1094
00:44:44,390 --> 00:44:42,420
paralysis and lucid dreaming and you

1095
00:44:49,010 --> 00:44:44,400
know all kinds of things

1096
00:44:51,890 --> 00:44:49,020
um and uh we were in uh an apartment a

1097
00:44:53,809 --> 00:44:51,900
rental apartment and we were due to

1098
00:44:55,910 --> 00:44:53,819
leave in a couple of days we'd been

1099
00:44:58,970 --> 00:44:55,920
there for a couple of months

1100
00:45:00,170 --> 00:44:58,980
and um we woke up in the middle of the

1101
00:45:02,329 --> 00:45:00,180
night because it sounded like somebody

1102
00:45:04,670 --> 00:45:02,339
was just crashing into the apartment and

1103
00:45:06,109 --> 00:45:04,680
I must admit I lay there and I thought

1104
00:45:08,150 --> 00:45:06,119
oh God not this again because I just

1105
00:45:12,349 --> 00:45:08,160
thought it was sleep paralysis and it

1106
00:45:15,230 --> 00:45:12,359
was a person a letting agent had given

1107
00:45:16,430 --> 00:45:15,240
uh somebody the um the key to the

1108
00:45:19,130 --> 00:45:16,440
apartment to go and have a look at it

1109
00:45:21,109 --> 00:45:19,140
not realizing I was still in it so he

1110
00:45:22,309 --> 00:45:21,119
got incredibly drunk and then just

1111
00:45:24,550 --> 00:45:22,319
crashed in at four o'clock in the

1112
00:45:30,410 --> 00:45:28,490
that is scary yeah so so that's me being

1113
00:45:32,750 --> 00:45:30,420
all complacent just thinking it was it

1114
00:45:34,550 --> 00:45:32,760
was the normal you know it was the head

1115
00:45:37,870 --> 00:45:34,560
stuff and it actually was actually it

1116
00:45:43,730 --> 00:45:41,510
that's like a an actual thing there yeah

1117
00:45:45,829 --> 00:45:43,740
that you know that reminds me of my own

1118
00:45:49,010 --> 00:45:45,839
okay so it's uh actually somebody in the

1119
00:45:51,170 --> 00:45:49,020
comments uh right now the Earth uh

1120
00:45:53,510 --> 00:45:51,180
she has her own podcast interviews

1121
00:45:56,089 --> 00:45:53,520
people have had anomalous experiences oh

1122
00:45:58,970 --> 00:45:56,099
yeah gave me about my uh of pompic

1123
00:46:00,770 --> 00:45:58,980
hallucinations and um you know I have

1124
00:46:02,390 --> 00:46:00,780
this family farm my grandparents out if

1125
00:46:04,430 --> 00:46:02,400
they left it to my brother and I um

1126
00:46:06,410 --> 00:46:04,440
that's why I have that opportunity uh

1127
00:46:08,210 --> 00:46:06,420
but The Farmhouse is like a 19th century

1128
00:46:10,130 --> 00:46:08,220
Carriage barn and it has not been

1129
00:46:12,349 --> 00:46:10,140
renovated like uh you know what I mean

1130
00:46:15,710 --> 00:46:12,359
so you're kind of like living in nature

1131
00:46:17,569 --> 00:46:15,720
inside the house and yeah they're very

1132
00:46:19,010 --> 00:46:17,579
big spiders in there you know back

1133
00:46:20,690 --> 00:46:19,020
problems and stuff like that so then

1134
00:46:24,109 --> 00:46:20,700
it's like when I'm not there anymore

1135
00:46:26,329 --> 00:46:24,119
like my uh typically if I'm having a

1136
00:46:29,510 --> 00:46:26,339
hypnobic experience it's like of a bat

1137
00:46:31,609 --> 00:46:29,520
or a spider and it's like uh waking up

1138
00:46:33,770 --> 00:46:31,619
and or a mouse like running across the

1139
00:46:36,470 --> 00:46:33,780
bed or something and it's like because

1140
00:46:39,290 --> 00:46:36,480
they're commonplace objects or you know

1141
00:46:42,650 --> 00:46:39,300
the creatures I don't know sometimes

1142
00:46:45,470 --> 00:46:42,660
fundamentally if uh they were real or

1143
00:46:46,970 --> 00:46:45,480
not and yeah it wasn't until uh you know

1144
00:46:48,710 --> 00:46:46,980
I was living like living with my wife

1145
00:46:50,270 --> 00:46:48,720
and stuff when I would like wake up and

1146
00:46:51,230 --> 00:46:50,280
like wake her up and try to get her to

1147
00:46:52,730 --> 00:46:51,240
get out of the room because there's a

1148
00:46:54,290 --> 00:46:52,740
bath line around and she would like

1149
00:46:57,130 --> 00:46:54,300
literally tell me like there isn't one

1150
00:46:59,270 --> 00:46:57,140
and you know see it like disappear

1151
00:47:00,710 --> 00:46:59,280
instantaneously and then I was like oh

1152
00:47:02,510 --> 00:47:00,720
okay

1153
00:47:04,490 --> 00:47:02,520
um but there's this mechanism that I

1154
00:47:06,710 --> 00:47:04,500
never self-identified but only through

1155
00:47:09,470 --> 00:47:06,720
the conversation with uh the Earth there

1156
00:47:11,270 --> 00:47:09,480
uh Rachel she was asking questions and I

1157
00:47:13,910 --> 00:47:11,280
realized that like when the

1158
00:47:16,250 --> 00:47:13,920
Hallucination is actively occurring

1159
00:47:19,010 --> 00:47:16,260
there has never been a time when I

1160
00:47:21,950 --> 00:47:19,020
wasn't certain in the moment that it was

1161
00:47:23,210 --> 00:47:21,960
real and I couldn't even with my like

1162
00:47:24,770 --> 00:47:23,220
and I didn't experience this prioritize

1163
00:47:27,230 --> 00:47:24,780
but when my wife was like actively

1164
00:47:29,390 --> 00:47:27,240
saying to me that's not there I remember

1165
00:47:31,849 --> 00:47:29,400
this thing it's like I couldn't accept

1166
00:47:34,730 --> 00:47:31,859
until it disappeared that it wasn't real

1167
00:47:36,950 --> 00:47:34,740
and it made me wonder like is there a

1168
00:47:39,530 --> 00:47:36,960
connection like it made me empathize

1169
00:47:41,450 --> 00:47:39,540
with people who have uh like kind of

1170
00:47:43,490 --> 00:47:41,460
continuous experiences like this because

1171
00:47:45,530 --> 00:47:43,500
it's like I wouldn't have imagined that

1172
00:47:47,329 --> 00:47:45,540
mechanism existing and then After

1173
00:47:49,250 --> 00:47:47,339
experiencing it it's like wow there

1174
00:47:51,230 --> 00:47:49,260
might not be like a choice to separate

1175
00:47:53,510 --> 00:47:51,240
these things well it makes you realize

1176
00:47:56,450 --> 00:47:53,520
that sort of oral hallucinations for

1177
00:47:57,829 --> 00:47:56,460
example are not as uncommon as you might

1178
00:47:59,809 --> 00:47:57,839
imagine

1179
00:48:01,250 --> 00:47:59,819
um in a regular population

1180
00:48:03,890 --> 00:48:01,260
there's a

1181
00:48:05,510 --> 00:48:03,900
uh you know and people people can

1182
00:48:07,430 --> 00:48:05,520
hallucinate things one of the things I

1183
00:48:09,710 --> 00:48:07,440
have lucid dreams very much associated

1184
00:48:11,630 --> 00:48:09,720
with sleep paralysis and one of the

1185
00:48:14,329 --> 00:48:11,640
things about lucid dreams is that you

1186
00:48:16,730 --> 00:48:14,339
look around and um

1187
00:48:19,550 --> 00:48:16,740
i i a few times I've looked and I

1188
00:48:21,770 --> 00:48:19,560
thought okay I must I must see whether

1189
00:48:24,770 --> 00:48:21,780
or not I'm kind of actually whether or

1190
00:48:26,990 --> 00:48:24,780
not this is all fuzzy uh and whether or

1191
00:48:29,809 --> 00:48:27,000
not it's actually rendering properly and

1192
00:48:31,309 --> 00:48:29,819
I look at everything is just total total

1193
00:48:33,829 --> 00:48:31,319
detail

1194
00:48:37,309 --> 00:48:33,839
in a way that it isn't in my normal

1195
00:48:39,530 --> 00:48:37,319
daytime perception okay you know and the

1196
00:48:40,670 --> 00:48:39,540
reason for that I think is that

1197
00:48:43,609 --> 00:48:40,680
um

1198
00:48:45,589 --> 00:48:43,619
because you know same for everybody that

1199
00:48:47,870 --> 00:48:45,599
there's this this sort of section right

1200
00:48:49,490 --> 00:48:47,880
in the middle and that's you can see

1201
00:48:52,309 --> 00:48:49,500
that highly in Focus you can see the

1202
00:48:55,370 --> 00:48:52,319
colors properly and then there's this

1203
00:48:59,569 --> 00:48:55,380
this stuff out here and this is most

1204
00:49:01,849 --> 00:48:59,579
alert to uh you know to movement

1205
00:49:03,589 --> 00:49:01,859
I mean you you can't perceive colors so

1206
00:49:06,410 --> 00:49:03,599
well out there and the reason for that

1207
00:49:08,690 --> 00:49:06,420
is you don't need to be using your

1208
00:49:10,730 --> 00:49:08,700
neural bandwidth on stuff on the

1209
00:49:13,069 --> 00:49:10,740
periphery all you need to be able to do

1210
00:49:14,630 --> 00:49:13,079
is to figure out as quickly as possible

1211
00:49:15,470 --> 00:49:14,640
if there's a Target going to jump onto

1212
00:49:19,609 --> 00:49:15,480
you

1213
00:49:21,770 --> 00:49:19,619
experience

1214
00:49:23,329 --> 00:49:21,780
um because your brain doesn't do the out

1215
00:49:25,069 --> 00:49:23,339
of focus thing it either produces

1216
00:49:27,710 --> 00:49:25,079
something or it doesn't

1217
00:49:30,349 --> 00:49:27,720
um I I think you you kind of

1218
00:49:31,730 --> 00:49:30,359
you know you have a perfect rendition of

1219
00:49:33,650 --> 00:49:31,740
it because that is what your brain is

1220
00:49:37,370 --> 00:49:33,660
thinking of and when you're when you are

1221
00:49:39,530 --> 00:49:37,380
lucid dreaming you can feel you can feel

1222
00:49:42,349 --> 00:49:39,540
the gas tank draining you know that you

1223
00:49:45,410 --> 00:49:42,359
don't have enough kind of um enough

1224
00:49:48,230 --> 00:49:45,420
energy left to carry on with this fully

1225
00:49:50,690 --> 00:49:48,240
saturated hallucination for very long if

1226
00:49:54,530 --> 00:49:50,700
you want to extend it you can do

1227
00:49:56,270 --> 00:49:54,540
something like uh you you can usually do

1228
00:49:58,430 --> 00:49:56,280
um either a vestibular sort of

1229
00:49:59,990 --> 00:49:58,440
stimulation or a touch stimulation you

1230
00:50:02,150 --> 00:50:00,000
can rub your hands together like that

1231
00:50:03,950 --> 00:50:02,160
that might give you a bit more

1232
00:50:05,390 --> 00:50:03,960
um or you can spin on the spot and that

1233
00:50:07,490 --> 00:50:05,400
might give you a bit more as well but

1234
00:50:09,309 --> 00:50:07,500
ask anybody who lucid dreams regularly

1235
00:50:12,050 --> 00:50:09,319
and

1236
00:50:13,730 --> 00:50:12,060
that that's what happens to them they

1237
00:50:16,190 --> 00:50:13,740
they they are aware that they are

1238
00:50:18,470 --> 00:50:16,200
running out of out of neural bandwidth

1239
00:50:20,270 --> 00:50:18,480
because it is you know this your brain

1240
00:50:22,010 --> 00:50:20,280
is producing such a saturated Perfect

1241
00:50:24,589 --> 00:50:22,020
Image and I bet you that's what's

1242
00:50:26,329 --> 00:50:24,599
happening with your spiders as well

1243
00:50:29,150 --> 00:50:26,339
um it is you know it's beautifully

1244
00:50:31,550 --> 00:50:29,160
rendered it's absolutely it's totally

1245
00:50:36,910 --> 00:50:31,560
real until it disappears I mean I had um

1246
00:50:40,309 --> 00:50:39,050
can you go to the bathroom in the middle

1247
00:50:41,569 --> 00:50:40,319
of the night you know you're sitting

1248
00:50:43,550 --> 00:50:41,579
there sort of like this and then there's

1249
00:50:45,170 --> 00:50:43,560
just loads of Disney dancing mice in

1250
00:50:48,230 --> 00:50:45,180
front of you and I mean fortunately I

1251
00:50:49,309 --> 00:50:48,240
knew what it was but uh

1252
00:50:50,930 --> 00:50:49,319
um if you

1253
00:50:52,130 --> 00:50:50,940
if you speak to somebody when somebody

1254
00:50:52,670 --> 00:50:52,140
gets

1255
00:50:55,010 --> 00:50:52,680
um

1256
00:50:58,250 --> 00:50:55,020
rational damage you quite often get this

1257
00:51:00,190 --> 00:50:58,260
with uh with somebody who's got diabetic

1258
00:51:02,510 --> 00:51:00,200
retinopathy or perhaps even a stroke and

1259
00:51:06,890 --> 00:51:02,520
uh they've got bits of the visual field

1260
00:51:08,870 --> 00:51:06,900
are missing your brain can't handle

1261
00:51:10,910 --> 00:51:08,880
nothing for a while it does eventually

1262
00:51:12,349 --> 00:51:10,920
you know you just get the black spot but

1263
00:51:13,549 --> 00:51:12,359
for a while your brain goes nope

1264
00:51:15,589 --> 00:51:13,559
something's supposed to be in there and

1265
00:51:16,370 --> 00:51:15,599
you can get hallucinations

1266
00:51:18,470 --> 00:51:16,380
um

1267
00:51:19,490 --> 00:51:18,480
and they're not delusions Solutions is

1268
00:51:21,770 --> 00:51:19,500
when you think they're there

1269
00:51:25,190 --> 00:51:21,780
hallucinations when you know they aren't

1270
00:51:27,589 --> 00:51:25,200
and people get very alarmed by these I

1271
00:51:28,910 --> 00:51:27,599
mean I I spoke to one man who he was in

1272
00:51:32,450 --> 00:51:28,920
tears he thought he was going mad

1273
00:51:35,569 --> 00:51:32,460
because this is such a beautiful images

1274
00:51:38,930 --> 00:51:35,579
perfectly rendered in bits of his his

1275
00:51:41,930 --> 00:51:38,940
visual field but it was just his brain

1276
00:51:44,210 --> 00:51:41,940
just sticking something in there

1277
00:51:45,589 --> 00:51:44,220
um and and when that happens after a

1278
00:51:47,210 --> 00:51:45,599
couple of months it tends to go your

1279
00:51:48,950 --> 00:51:47,220
brain realizes no there isn't anything

1280
00:51:52,069 --> 00:51:48,960
there actually

1281
00:51:53,510 --> 00:51:52,079
right and so people like who have these

1282
00:51:55,849 --> 00:51:53,520
kinds of experiences that you're

1283
00:51:58,490 --> 00:51:55,859
describing are at least from what I've

1284
00:52:00,829 --> 00:51:58,500
seen often put at the center of these

1285
00:52:04,250 --> 00:52:00,839
communities uh paranormal Supernatural

1286
00:52:07,790 --> 00:52:04,260
in the very specific forms especially I

1287
00:52:08,809 --> 00:52:07,800
would argue a cult and uh UFO

1288
00:52:11,030 --> 00:52:08,819
um

1289
00:52:14,690 --> 00:52:11,040
I'm not sure what of others would apply

1290
00:52:16,670 --> 00:52:14,700
but there's this core element in the

1291
00:52:18,890 --> 00:52:16,680
development of the original uh modern

1292
00:52:20,150 --> 00:52:18,900
occult practices in the 19th century

1293
00:52:21,950 --> 00:52:20,160
where when I was looking into this thing

1294
00:52:24,170 --> 00:52:21,960
there's always like a central figure who

1295
00:52:26,450 --> 00:52:24,180
believes or is saying that they are

1296
00:52:28,910 --> 00:52:26,460
experiencing communicating with uh

1297
00:52:30,710 --> 00:52:28,920
entities of some kind and that

1298
00:52:33,950 --> 00:52:30,720
information transfers down into the

1299
00:52:35,750 --> 00:52:33,960
population and it sort of builds up from

1300
00:52:38,990 --> 00:52:35,760
there uh

1301
00:52:41,030 --> 00:52:39,000
with these specific experiences that I

1302
00:52:42,890 --> 00:52:41,040
so it kind of been a unique situation

1303
00:52:44,870 --> 00:52:42,900
where you're having kind of these

1304
00:52:47,150 --> 00:52:44,880
experiences in some ways that can look

1305
00:52:49,549 --> 00:52:47,160
at and say like oh back in the day these

1306
00:52:52,430 --> 00:52:49,559
would have potentially been significant

1307
00:52:53,870 --> 00:52:52,440
or perceived as significant is and yet a

1308
00:52:54,950 --> 00:52:53,880
lot of the people in the Supernatural

1309
00:52:56,569 --> 00:52:54,960
communities themselves are not

1310
00:52:58,190 --> 00:52:56,579
experiencing these things directly but

1311
00:52:59,630 --> 00:52:58,200
are like listening to somebody who is

1312
00:53:02,870 --> 00:52:59,640
experiencing them and interpreting them

1313
00:53:05,450 --> 00:53:02,880
in a specific way have you in your

1314
00:53:11,809 --> 00:53:05,460
experience come across like

1315
00:53:14,450 --> 00:53:11,819
a method that best uh allows people who

1316
00:53:16,370 --> 00:53:14,460
are sort of uh engaged with this kind of

1317
00:53:17,569 --> 00:53:16,380
experience to think about it more

1318
00:53:20,089 --> 00:53:17,579
broadly like

1319
00:53:22,849 --> 00:53:20,099
in communicating your experiences have

1320
00:53:26,089 --> 00:53:22,859
you found a way to get people to

1321
00:53:29,630 --> 00:53:26,099
consider that interpretive lens that

1322
00:53:33,230 --> 00:53:29,640
you're describing more effectively

1323
00:53:35,210 --> 00:53:33,240
I think it depends who you are in that

1324
00:53:38,030 --> 00:53:35,220
organization the the psychologist

1325
00:53:40,130 --> 00:53:38,040
William James defined what he called as

1326
00:53:43,130 --> 00:53:40,140
a religious genius and he felt that

1327
00:53:44,690 --> 00:53:43,140
there were people who had um who were

1328
00:53:46,730 --> 00:53:44,700
themselves had potent religious

1329
00:53:48,890 --> 00:53:46,740
experiences he wasn't saying that those

1330
00:53:50,990 --> 00:53:48,900
experiences were vertically real but he

1331
00:53:52,910 --> 00:53:51,000
was saying that they uh they had them

1332
00:53:55,010 --> 00:53:52,920
they were able to

1333
00:53:58,609 --> 00:53:55,020
to charismatically pass these on to

1334
00:54:00,230 --> 00:53:58,619
other people now of a lot of people who

1335
00:54:01,549 --> 00:54:00,240
have these experiences a great many of

1336
00:54:05,210 --> 00:54:01,559
them won't be able to pass them on to

1337
00:54:06,650 --> 00:54:05,220
anyone because they will be too caught

1338
00:54:08,329 --> 00:54:06,660
up in their own experience to actually

1339
00:54:09,829 --> 00:54:08,339
communicate

1340
00:54:11,750 --> 00:54:09,839
um you know I'm thinking of people for

1341
00:54:14,510 --> 00:54:11,760
example with temporal lobe epilepsy who

1342
00:54:18,470 --> 00:54:14,520
can have incredibly strong uh religious

1343
00:54:20,210 --> 00:54:18,480
hallucinations if you are so tied up in

1344
00:54:21,589 --> 00:54:20,220
your own experience you're actually not

1345
00:54:24,530 --> 00:54:21,599
particularly interested in passing a

1346
00:54:27,950 --> 00:54:24,540
message on but there are people who kind

1347
00:54:29,690 --> 00:54:27,960
of managed to to get between the two

1348
00:54:32,030 --> 00:54:29,700
um you know and and so he thought that

1349
00:54:34,010 --> 00:54:32,040
there was these a neat there were these

1350
00:54:35,809 --> 00:54:34,020
people who had the genius they had the

1351
00:54:38,329 --> 00:54:35,819
initial thing and then there were a load

1352
00:54:40,549 --> 00:54:38,339
of people afterwards who who followed

1353
00:54:43,670 --> 00:54:40,559
she sort of formed the more uh corporate

1354
00:54:47,270 --> 00:54:43,680
level of the religion if you like and uh

1355
00:54:51,410 --> 00:54:47,280
sometimes a religion would survive the

1356
00:54:54,890 --> 00:54:53,089
um and sometimes it wouldn't most often

1357
00:54:56,930 --> 00:54:54,900
it doesn't you know you most often get a

1358
00:54:58,490 --> 00:54:56,940
cult for the lifetime of the person who

1359
00:55:00,890 --> 00:54:58,500
is able to

1360
00:55:02,030 --> 00:55:00,900
um to start it and then after that you

1361
00:55:05,870 --> 00:55:02,040
you kind of

1362
00:55:09,290 --> 00:55:05,880
it it just isn't organized enough and

1363
00:55:11,030 --> 00:55:09,300
uh I I think you know you saw this with

1364
00:55:13,910 --> 00:55:11,040
the fox sisters for example in Upstate

1365
00:55:15,829 --> 00:55:13,920
New York in the 19th century they

1366
00:55:16,970 --> 00:55:15,839
actually admitted later that they faked

1367
00:55:19,069 --> 00:55:16,980
a lot of the

1368
00:55:20,390 --> 00:55:19,079
um the stuff that happened to them that

1369
00:55:22,250 --> 00:55:20,400
they started out doing it for attention

1370
00:55:25,309 --> 00:55:22,260
and

1371
00:55:27,470 --> 00:55:25,319
they they spent the early years of their

1372
00:55:29,210 --> 00:55:27,480
lives touring around as psychics as

1373
00:55:30,650 --> 00:55:29,220
mediums and helped to start off

1374
00:55:34,130 --> 00:55:30,660
inadvertently to start off a new

1375
00:55:36,430 --> 00:55:34,140
religion spiritualism and uh by the time

1376
00:55:39,049 --> 00:55:36,440
that they were admitting that they had

1377
00:55:40,849 --> 00:55:39,059
made it up or one of them specifically

1378
00:55:42,829 --> 00:55:40,859
admitted that she made it up and the

1379
00:55:46,609 --> 00:55:42,839
other one was sitting in the audience

1380
00:55:48,410 --> 00:55:46,619
kind of uh as a confirmer if you like

1381
00:55:51,470 --> 00:55:48,420
um it was too late the momentum had

1382
00:55:52,790 --> 00:55:51,480
already been carried away and this

1383
00:55:55,130 --> 00:55:52,800
wasn't

1384
00:55:57,470 --> 00:55:55,140
you know so there were different kinds

1385
00:55:59,390 --> 00:55:57,480
of psychologies and needs

1386
00:56:02,089 --> 00:55:59,400
of individuals throughout that whole

1387
00:56:04,730 --> 00:56:02,099
process to begin with there were some

1388
00:56:06,349 --> 00:56:04,740
teenage girls who wanted who were not

1389
00:56:08,990 --> 00:56:06,359
very educated not very well traveled and

1390
00:56:10,370 --> 00:56:09,000
they wanted attention and then after

1391
00:56:13,849 --> 00:56:10,380
that there were a couple of Quakers

1392
00:56:15,829 --> 00:56:13,859
Isaac and Amy post who

1393
00:56:17,809 --> 00:56:15,839
um what kind of intermediaries they had

1394
00:56:19,190 --> 00:56:17,819
clout in the community but they believed

1395
00:56:21,170 --> 00:56:19,200
what was happening with the girls so

1396
00:56:23,210 --> 00:56:21,180
they were out in effect lending their

1397
00:56:25,849 --> 00:56:23,220
reputations to it and being promoters

1398
00:56:27,950 --> 00:56:25,859
and then after that you had a community

1399
00:56:30,890 --> 00:56:27,960
of people who

1400
00:56:33,770 --> 00:56:30,900
who bought into this religion who

1401
00:56:35,450 --> 00:56:33,780
brought into this religious movement

1402
00:56:37,549 --> 00:56:35,460
initially

1403
00:56:40,609 --> 00:56:37,559
um probably kind of you know you you

1404
00:56:44,569 --> 00:56:40,619
your sort of Tent Revival type people

1405
00:56:45,650 --> 00:56:44,579
and then later on a bit more a bit more

1406
00:56:48,890 --> 00:56:45,660
sober

1407
00:56:52,250 --> 00:56:48,900
a bit more um sort of you know middle

1408
00:56:54,230 --> 00:56:52,260
class uh front room kind of stuff so

1409
00:56:56,809 --> 00:56:54,240
you've got these different stages and

1410
00:57:00,470 --> 00:56:56,819
different people are signing on to the

1411
00:57:01,849 --> 00:57:00,480
same story for different reasons

1412
00:57:03,710 --> 00:57:01,859
um so

1413
00:57:05,210 --> 00:57:03,720
really it depends on after that whether

1414
00:57:07,370 --> 00:57:05,220
or not your religion becomes corporate

1415
00:57:11,270 --> 00:57:07,380
enough that you can produce

1416
00:57:13,430 --> 00:57:11,280
a standardized product and uh

1417
00:57:15,589 --> 00:57:13,440
and keep it going

1418
00:57:17,270 --> 00:57:15,599
right this is something that actually is

1419
00:57:20,569 --> 00:57:17,280
uh deeply interested me the more I

1420
00:57:22,670 --> 00:57:20,579
looked into the occult and uh I've

1421
00:57:26,770 --> 00:57:22,680
talked before several times on this show

1422
00:57:29,870 --> 00:57:26,780
about how I uh historically have

1423
00:57:32,510 --> 00:57:29,880
experimented with uh psychedelics like

1424
00:57:34,309 --> 00:57:32,520
magic mushrooms especially numerous

1425
00:57:36,290 --> 00:57:34,319
occasions I found them it's like

1426
00:57:38,569 --> 00:57:36,300
replicable experience as long as you're

1427
00:57:40,970 --> 00:57:38,579
doing the doses correctly and then the

1428
00:57:41,809 --> 00:57:40,980
Psychedelic effects are

1429
00:57:44,809 --> 00:57:41,819
um

1430
00:57:47,089 --> 00:57:44,819
you know they produce a a quantifiable

1431
00:57:48,530 --> 00:57:47,099
experience in some ways uh that as I

1432
00:57:50,089 --> 00:57:48,540
said it's replicable and that's you know

1433
00:57:52,130 --> 00:57:50,099
why there's so much research being done

1434
00:57:54,530 --> 00:57:52,140
right now on potentially uh legal yes

1435
00:57:56,089 --> 00:57:54,540
decriminalizing regulating

1436
00:57:58,970 --> 00:57:56,099
um when I'm looking into the occult and

1437
00:58:00,829 --> 00:57:58,980
stuff I'm seeing ritual uh rituals being

1438
00:58:03,470 --> 00:58:00,839
described and then I'm seeing the

1439
00:58:05,809 --> 00:58:03,480
subjective qualitative experiences of

1440
00:58:07,910 --> 00:58:05,819
people at the top levels of these

1441
00:58:10,490 --> 00:58:07,920
rituals being described and there's a

1442
00:58:14,329 --> 00:58:10,500
very similar uh thing there and then

1443
00:58:16,190 --> 00:58:14,339
looking into UFO uh abduction reports

1444
00:58:19,010 --> 00:58:16,200
and people talking about sort of like

1445
00:58:20,510 --> 00:58:19,020
the altered uh Diamond reality and stuff

1446
00:58:21,710 --> 00:58:20,520
that they sometimes experience in

1447
00:58:24,890 --> 00:58:21,720
relation these things like there's

1448
00:58:28,130 --> 00:58:24,900
something going on there underneath like

1449
00:58:30,049 --> 00:58:28,140
there is this uh appeal of Altered

1450
00:58:33,049 --> 00:58:30,059
States uh fundamentally in some way to

1451
00:58:35,870 --> 00:58:33,059
humans it seems it

1452
00:58:38,870 --> 00:58:35,880
when I'm looking at the occult stuff and

1453
00:58:41,750 --> 00:58:38,880
I'm seeing that people are you know

1454
00:58:44,030 --> 00:58:41,760
engaging in pretty intense activities to

1455
00:58:45,230 --> 00:58:44,040
trigger these things and then there are

1456
00:58:47,150 --> 00:58:45,240
people who are completely removed from

1457
00:58:49,370 --> 00:58:47,160
that culture like uh the Continental

1458
00:58:52,130 --> 00:58:49,380
philosopher Foucault for example he

1459
00:58:53,230 --> 00:58:52,140
wrote about in the 70s he traveled to

1460
00:58:57,410 --> 00:58:53,240
California

1461
00:59:01,150 --> 00:58:57,420
did uh LSD numerous times and engaged in

1462
00:59:04,670 --> 00:59:01,160
uh ritual uh BDSM practices that he then

1463
00:59:06,950 --> 00:59:04,680
described as being the peak Human

1464
00:59:10,190 --> 00:59:06,960
Experience and it's the same exact

1465
00:59:12,710 --> 00:59:10,200
language as these people uh Alistair

1466
00:59:15,589 --> 00:59:12,720
Crowley's uh what Golden Dawn are

1467
00:59:17,210 --> 00:59:15,599
talking about in the late 1800s

1468
00:59:19,069 --> 00:59:17,220
is there

1469
00:59:22,309 --> 00:59:19,079
like you know within

1470
00:59:24,710 --> 00:59:22,319
skeptic culture uh when I've engaged but

1471
00:59:27,289 --> 00:59:24,720
often it's a little bit like uh it's not

1472
00:59:29,030 --> 00:59:27,299
as sort of bouncy and fun it is exciting

1473
00:59:30,589 --> 00:59:29,040
in some aspects of the Paranormal

1474
00:59:33,470 --> 00:59:30,599
culture like these people are sort of

1475
00:59:35,690 --> 00:59:33,480
like uh you know getting into the sort

1476
00:59:37,010 --> 00:59:35,700
of fun sides of things and like you know

1477
00:59:38,750 --> 00:59:37,020
there are like get togethers with

1478
00:59:40,309 --> 00:59:38,760
Skeptics and stuff is there a place for

1479
00:59:42,890 --> 00:59:40,319
that sort of like

1480
00:59:44,510 --> 00:59:42,900
more intense level of Engagement with

1481
00:59:46,190 --> 00:59:44,520
these things within the modern skeptic

1482
00:59:48,710 --> 00:59:46,200
culture in your view

1483
00:59:53,510 --> 00:59:48,720
oh Skeptics have access to mushrooms too

1484
00:59:58,789 --> 00:59:56,930
um yeah I think it's I think it comes

1485
01:00:00,829 --> 00:59:58,799
down to a lot of personality traits and

1486
01:00:02,630 --> 01:00:00,839
and it's how you express your

1487
01:00:05,089 --> 01:00:02,640
religiosity and how you express your

1488
01:00:06,230 --> 01:00:05,099
skepticism and uh just because you're a

1489
01:00:08,990 --> 01:00:06,240
skeptic it doesn't mean to say that

1490
01:00:11,089 --> 01:00:09,000
you're not open to a numerous experience

1491
01:00:12,470 --> 01:00:11,099
um there are you know there are as you

1492
01:00:14,990 --> 01:00:12,480
quite rightly point out there are

1493
01:00:18,430 --> 01:00:15,000
Altered States there are

1494
01:00:20,569 --> 01:00:18,440
um a range of ways to get to them and

1495
01:00:24,770 --> 01:00:20,579
you could

1496
01:00:27,589 --> 01:00:24,780
food for three days being a monk in a

1497
01:00:28,930 --> 01:00:27,599
cell or you could do some shrooms and

1498
01:00:31,430 --> 01:00:28,940
you know

1499
01:00:33,049 --> 01:00:31,440
we all have the same brains so they're

1500
01:00:35,089 --> 01:00:33,059
likely to be similar kinds of

1501
01:00:37,309 --> 01:00:35,099
experiences

1502
01:00:38,690 --> 01:00:37,319
um a lot of them are bad as well I mean

1503
01:00:39,950 --> 01:00:38,700
people you know people have to be

1504
01:00:41,930 --> 01:00:39,960
careful because you get stuck in dark

1505
01:00:43,970 --> 01:00:41,940
places like you can get

1506
01:00:46,549 --> 01:00:43,980
stuck in Dark Places with lucid dreaming

1507
01:00:47,750 --> 01:00:46,559
if you uh if you kind of do the

1508
01:00:52,190 --> 01:00:47,760
supercharged

1509
01:00:54,710 --> 01:00:52,200
um pharmaceutically enhanced versions so

1510
01:00:56,390 --> 01:00:54,720
um yeah I mean I I think I think it

1511
01:00:58,130 --> 01:00:56,400
depends on the personality traits of the

1512
01:01:00,410 --> 01:00:58,140
there are a lot of people I mean people

1513
01:01:02,870 --> 01:01:00,420
who go to church as well they will swear

1514
01:01:04,970 --> 01:01:02,880
that they they believe in God they

1515
01:01:06,530 --> 01:01:04,980
believe in sort of Christ and all these

1516
01:01:10,190 --> 01:01:06,540
angels and everything but they've never

1517
01:01:12,170 --> 01:01:10,200
had a personal experience that they are

1518
01:01:15,049 --> 01:01:12,180
they're as flat as a pancake from that

1519
01:01:16,970 --> 01:01:15,059
point of view and they have more in

1520
01:01:19,370 --> 01:01:16,980
common personality wise I guess with a

1521
01:01:21,410 --> 01:01:19,380
skeptic who doesn't know what anybody's

1522
01:01:23,630 --> 01:01:21,420
going on about too

1523
01:01:25,490 --> 01:01:23,640
yes

1524
01:01:26,809 --> 01:01:25,500
yeah that would remind me like uh we

1525
01:01:29,569 --> 01:01:26,819
actually we did a Twitter space a while

1526
01:01:30,829 --> 01:01:29,579
ago and I wish Nick was here uh he was

1527
01:01:32,150 --> 01:01:30,839
looking forward to talking to you

1528
01:01:34,430 --> 01:01:32,160
because he he used to do the ghost

1529
01:01:35,630 --> 01:01:34,440
hunting and stuff so uh but he he talked

1530
01:01:37,370 --> 01:01:35,640
about it in the space we were going

1531
01:01:39,470 --> 01:01:37,380
around talking about whether we've had

1532
01:01:40,730 --> 01:01:39,480
access to these sort of Altered States

1533
01:01:43,370 --> 01:01:40,740
and stuff and he was saying that he

1534
01:01:45,049 --> 01:01:43,380
doesn't actually experience uh any kind

1535
01:01:46,609 --> 01:01:45,059
of altar State even from music or

1536
01:01:47,809 --> 01:01:46,619
anything and uh you know it's an

1537
01:01:50,809 --> 01:01:47,819
interesting thing that there's a big

1538
01:01:53,450 --> 01:01:50,819
variation there and uh he was

1539
01:01:55,490 --> 01:01:53,460
more open to sort of the Paranormal

1540
01:01:57,109 --> 01:01:55,500
stuff but then he didn't have access to

1541
01:01:58,970 --> 01:01:57,119
the the numinous as you were describing

1542
01:02:01,309 --> 01:01:58,980
and then me on the other hand like kind

1543
01:02:04,430 --> 01:02:01,319
of being like pure materialist all this

1544
01:02:07,069 --> 01:02:04,440
time and then I'm hitting the hard you

1545
01:02:09,289 --> 01:02:07,079
know psychedelics uh you know so there's

1546
01:02:09,950 --> 01:02:09,299
a huge variation there

1547
01:02:11,930 --> 01:02:09,960
um

1548
01:02:13,130 --> 01:02:11,940
yeah I think isn't that strange don't

1549
01:02:14,750 --> 01:02:13,140
you find it strange when you meet

1550
01:02:17,210 --> 01:02:14,760
someone I've only met one person but

1551
01:02:19,309 --> 01:02:17,220
there are people who just kind of

1552
01:02:21,349 --> 01:02:19,319
think that you're Faking It with music

1553
01:02:22,730 --> 01:02:21,359
they're going people people don't really

1554
01:02:24,109 --> 01:02:22,740
feel anything do they I mean the

1555
01:02:26,510 --> 01:02:24,119
rhythm's good when you're working out

1556
01:02:28,849 --> 01:02:26,520
but but people don't feel anything with

1557
01:02:32,270 --> 01:02:28,859
music and you're going my God you know

1558
01:02:33,950 --> 01:02:32,280
that's such a thing to miss out on yeah

1559
01:02:36,710 --> 01:02:33,960
yeah absolutely yeah I'd say it's like

1560
01:02:38,809 --> 01:02:36,720
oh Darren that you're not uh accessing

1561
01:02:41,690 --> 01:02:38,819
something that I find quite uh Central

1562
01:02:44,569 --> 01:02:41,700
to my day-to-day existence well yeah

1563
01:02:49,130 --> 01:02:44,579
it's like what are you doing to get that

1564
01:02:53,450 --> 01:02:49,140
uh well never mind so like uh let me see

1565
01:02:55,670 --> 01:02:53,460
like pivoting a tiny bit here I uh was

1566
01:02:59,569 --> 01:02:55,680
wondering about

1567
01:03:03,289 --> 01:02:59,579
like werewolves and so the whole thing

1568
01:03:05,990 --> 01:03:03,299
growing up the classic is you know the

1569
01:03:09,410 --> 01:03:06,000
the werewolf on like the English war or

1570
01:03:12,890 --> 01:03:09,420
something yeah is there

1571
01:03:16,069 --> 01:03:12,900
is there a reason that that kind of

1572
01:03:18,890 --> 01:03:16,079
thing manifests more frequently

1573
01:03:20,030 --> 01:03:18,900
in the UK like the idea of the

1574
01:03:23,809 --> 01:03:20,040
transition

1575
01:03:25,609 --> 01:03:23,819
into the uh wolf or whatever uh is it

1576
01:03:27,049 --> 01:03:25,619
culturally dependent or is it kind of

1577
01:03:29,329 --> 01:03:27,059
random

1578
01:03:33,410 --> 01:03:29,339
I would say that there were there is a

1579
01:03:35,150 --> 01:03:33,420
common in most cultures is the idea that

1580
01:03:36,890 --> 01:03:35,160
we have an affinity with animals so the

1581
01:03:39,349 --> 01:03:36,900
idea that there could be a transition

1582
01:03:42,950 --> 01:03:39,359
between an animal and a human

1583
01:03:45,410 --> 01:03:42,960
um our culture has a very strict cut off

1584
01:03:48,470 --> 01:03:45,420
point you know because we've we

1585
01:03:50,630 --> 01:03:48,480
philosophize that you know we have

1586
01:03:52,789 --> 01:03:50,640
language where we're more important that

1587
01:03:53,930 --> 01:03:52,799
kind of stuff a lot of traditional

1588
01:03:56,210 --> 01:03:53,940
cultures

1589
01:03:57,650 --> 01:03:56,220
um would you know take on Titanic

1590
01:03:59,450 --> 01:03:57,660
animals and things like that so they

1591
01:04:01,730 --> 01:03:59,460
would identify far more with animals

1592
01:04:03,049 --> 01:04:01,740
than than we would there's a lot of

1593
01:04:05,390 --> 01:04:03,059
European

1594
01:04:07,849 --> 01:04:05,400
uh mythology

1595
01:04:09,470 --> 01:04:07,859
to do with people taking on animals I

1596
01:04:12,410 --> 01:04:09,480
mean there's a sort of the the north

1597
01:04:16,190 --> 01:04:12,420
hero bobiaki there's a story about how

1598
01:04:18,470 --> 01:04:16,200
there was a big battle and his there was

1599
01:04:20,510 --> 01:04:18,480
a great big bear came in and joined in

1600
01:04:22,670 --> 01:04:20,520
the battle and started sort of slashing

1601
01:04:24,829 --> 01:04:22,680
everybody and

1602
01:04:26,690 --> 01:04:24,839
um bobiaki's friend noticed that he

1603
01:04:28,549 --> 01:04:26,700
wasn't at the Battle so he ran back to

1604
01:04:31,390 --> 01:04:28,559
the tent where he was and bobiaki was

1605
01:04:34,190 --> 01:04:31,400
there sort of just meditating

1606
01:04:35,510 --> 01:04:34,200
and uh he was shaking him and said oh no

1607
01:04:37,970 --> 01:04:35,520
no come on you've got to fight you've

1608
01:04:39,710 --> 01:04:37,980
got to fight and umaki said oh well you

1609
01:04:41,030 --> 01:04:39,720
know I won't be as useful now and when

1610
01:04:43,549 --> 01:04:41,040
they both went back together the bear

1611
01:04:46,549 --> 01:04:43,559
had disappeared and the idea was that

1612
01:04:49,309 --> 01:04:46,559
um was projecting himself as the bear

1613
01:04:51,349 --> 01:04:49,319
and was being more useful so it's kind

1614
01:04:54,170 --> 01:04:51,359
of like there's there's a metaphor for a

1615
01:04:55,970 --> 01:04:54,180
warrior as a bear or a wolf

1616
01:04:58,190 --> 01:04:55,980
um and

1617
01:05:00,170 --> 01:04:58,200
you know the idea that literally he

1618
01:05:01,910 --> 01:05:00,180
would inhabit the body of a bear but but

1619
01:05:05,030 --> 01:05:01,920
the sort of the idea that there was a

1620
01:05:06,770 --> 01:05:05,040
transition that a man would embody the

1621
01:05:11,809 --> 01:05:06,780
qualities of the bear were not

1622
01:05:14,530 --> 01:05:11,819
antithetical to them so yeah so that's

1623
01:05:18,109 --> 01:05:14,540
yeah that's that's really not uncommon

1624
01:05:19,970 --> 01:05:18,119
where we're familiar with wolves

1625
01:05:22,609 --> 01:05:19,980
um it tends to be from the witch hunts

1626
01:05:25,309 --> 01:05:22,619
of the 16th and 17th centuries in Europe

1627
01:05:29,329 --> 01:05:25,319
and I would say most of the werewolf

1628
01:05:30,890 --> 01:05:29,339
cases that we know have come from France

1629
01:05:33,530 --> 01:05:30,900
uh

1630
01:05:36,470 --> 01:05:33,540
and in this case it was werewolfism was

1631
01:05:38,569 --> 01:05:36,480
an outcropping of witchcraft

1632
01:05:41,150 --> 01:05:38,579
and uh

1633
01:05:43,670 --> 01:05:41,160
it was it was relatively late

1634
01:05:46,010 --> 01:05:43,680
yeah it was relatively late in the in

1635
01:05:47,510 --> 01:05:46,020
the witch trials and the idea was that I

1636
01:05:49,609 --> 01:05:47,520
mean there were theologians who spent

1637
01:05:51,530 --> 01:05:49,619
time thinking about whether or not this

1638
01:05:53,089 --> 01:05:51,540
was it was possible physically to

1639
01:05:55,910 --> 01:05:53,099
actually turn into a wolf but it was

1640
01:05:58,670 --> 01:05:55,920
they thought it was more likely that um

1641
01:06:00,530 --> 01:05:58,680
it just there was an aerial Effigy that

1642
01:06:02,089 --> 01:06:00,540
enveloped your body that made it seem to

1643
01:06:03,230 --> 01:06:02,099
you and made it seem to unlookers as

1644
01:06:04,549 --> 01:06:03,240
though you were wolf but you weren't

1645
01:06:06,589 --> 01:06:04,559
wolf really

1646
01:06:08,750 --> 01:06:06,599
and um so there are various classic

1647
01:06:10,730 --> 01:06:08,760
werewolf cases where somebody was

1648
01:06:13,849 --> 01:06:10,740
actually ended up where people were

1649
01:06:16,490 --> 01:06:13,859
tried for being uh for being witches who

1650
01:06:21,289 --> 01:06:16,500
had shape-shifted but that's a very

1651
01:06:23,450 --> 01:06:21,299
specific subset of um of witch trials

1652
01:06:26,150 --> 01:06:23,460
and it's kind of it's it's unfetter

1653
01:06:28,309 --> 01:06:26,160
Wolves as well because I think you know

1654
01:06:29,630 --> 01:06:28,319
that that malignant werewolf was

1655
01:06:32,870 --> 01:06:29,640
something that

1656
01:06:34,490 --> 01:06:32,880
uh or that we've got into modern

1657
01:06:37,370 --> 01:06:34,500
into modern fiction

1658
01:06:38,690 --> 01:06:37,380
you know the sort of grand March or the

1659
01:06:40,370 --> 01:06:38,700
wolf dressing up as grandmother with

1660
01:06:43,069 --> 01:06:40,380
Little Red Riding Hood that kind of

1661
01:06:44,710 --> 01:06:43,079
stuff we think of the thought of wolves

1662
01:06:47,569 --> 01:06:44,720
as being

1663
01:06:48,950 --> 01:06:47,579
antisocial bloodthirsty

1664
01:06:50,990 --> 01:06:48,960
um and they're really not they're

1665
01:06:52,849 --> 01:06:51,000
they're actually they're very cool

1666
01:06:54,890 --> 01:06:52,859
animals and and I think that they very

1667
01:06:57,109 --> 01:06:54,900
they've really have suffered as a result

1668
01:06:58,250 --> 01:06:57,119
of this uh this werewolf mythology

1669
01:07:03,049 --> 01:06:58,260
taking

1670
01:07:04,730 --> 01:07:03,059
last 500 years or so right yeah they all

1671
01:07:07,069 --> 01:07:04,740
basically never attack humans I think

1672
01:07:09,049 --> 01:07:07,079
there's like one recorded case and like

1673
01:07:10,670 --> 01:07:09,059
typically it's either juveniles that

1674
01:07:12,470 --> 01:07:10,680
have lost their parent enough they're

1675
01:07:15,289 --> 01:07:12,480
probably socialized or like an elderly

1676
01:07:17,750 --> 01:07:15,299
one that's sick so yeah that makes total

1677
01:07:19,849 --> 01:07:17,760
sense to me I I never put together the

1678
01:07:22,690 --> 01:07:19,859
connection between and I should have I

1679
01:07:25,730 --> 01:07:22,700
suppose uh werewolves and like

1680
01:07:28,190 --> 01:07:25,740
Norse uh at least you know a variety of

1681
01:07:31,190 --> 01:07:28,200
paganism involving uh you know Bears

1682
01:07:33,230 --> 01:07:31,200
urkers wolf zurkers like yeah that was

1683
01:07:35,329 --> 01:07:33,240
familiar with the ritual practices that

1684
01:07:37,490 --> 01:07:35,339
are interested they're trying to take on

1685
01:07:39,170 --> 01:07:37,500
the spirits of the animals uh it makes

1686
01:07:41,210 --> 01:07:39,180
sense to me from a psychological

1687
01:07:43,789 --> 01:07:41,220
perspective if I was going into battle

1688
01:07:46,430 --> 01:07:43,799
to kill people it makes sense to want

1689
01:07:47,569 --> 01:07:46,440
some dissociation from that and to um

1690
01:07:50,630 --> 01:07:47,579
like

1691
01:07:52,789 --> 01:07:50,640
sort of create the idea that it's not

1692
01:07:54,730 --> 01:07:52,799
you in a sense it's an animal and then

1693
01:07:58,190 --> 01:07:54,740
you can sort of dissipate that

1694
01:08:00,710 --> 01:07:58,200
responsibility after the monster leaves

1695
01:08:02,630 --> 01:08:00,720
right yeah there's some I think there's

1696
01:08:05,750 --> 01:08:02,640
been some there's been a

1697
01:08:07,789 --> 01:08:05,760
some work done that shows that uh when

1698
01:08:10,549 --> 01:08:07,799
when Warriors are when soldiers cover up

1699
01:08:12,529 --> 01:08:10,559
their faces uh before going into battle

1700
01:08:15,049 --> 01:08:12,539
they're far more likely to mutilate or

1701
01:08:17,870 --> 01:08:15,059
torture or kill so it's sort of taking

1702
01:08:20,390 --> 01:08:17,880
on a Persona and trying to use the

1703
01:08:21,410 --> 01:08:20,400
Persona of something potent a top-level

1704
01:08:24,470 --> 01:08:21,420
predator

1705
01:08:26,689 --> 01:08:24,480
and that's a ritual function as well uh

1706
01:08:29,630 --> 01:08:26,699
yeah

1707
01:08:32,209 --> 01:08:29,640
um and that was making me think uh I'm

1708
01:08:34,490 --> 01:08:32,219
part Icelandic mostly English but um I

1709
01:08:37,189 --> 01:08:34,500
have an interest in the Icelandic sagas

1710
01:08:39,829 --> 01:08:37,199
because of that like my uh grandma mom

1711
01:08:41,689 --> 01:08:39,839
always had the kitchen which uh in the

1712
01:08:43,849 --> 01:08:41,699
kitchen and stuff they were a little you

1713
01:08:46,550 --> 01:08:43,859
know folklore things so I found that

1714
01:08:48,349 --> 01:08:46,560
interesting and in uh in The greenlander

1715
01:08:49,970 --> 01:08:48,359
Saga specifically it's right in the

1716
01:08:51,169 --> 01:08:49,980
transition around year 1000 when they

1717
01:08:53,329 --> 01:08:51,179
were christianized but they were

1718
01:08:54,769 --> 01:08:53,339
retaining Pagan uh traditions and so

1719
01:08:56,269 --> 01:08:54,779
when there was a famine for example

1720
01:08:59,209 --> 01:08:56,279
there's an elaborate description of a

1721
01:09:00,410 --> 01:08:59,219
ritual where they bring a Seer to

1722
01:09:02,150 --> 01:09:00,420
predict the end of the famine and they

1723
01:09:04,430 --> 01:09:02,160
have everybody sort of sit in a circle

1724
01:09:06,829 --> 01:09:04,440
and then they're singing the warden

1725
01:09:08,749 --> 01:09:06,839
songs they're calling on the except it's

1726
01:09:10,090 --> 01:09:08,759
translated no moderate as the weirding

1727
01:09:12,410 --> 01:09:10,100
songs

1728
01:09:14,749 --> 01:09:12,420
you're calling on your ward and spirit

1729
01:09:17,870 --> 01:09:14,759
your guardian angel your Fairy Godmother

1730
01:09:20,030 --> 01:09:17,880
to come and assist you to inform you and

1731
01:09:21,950 --> 01:09:20,040
things like that and so at that time

1732
01:09:24,650 --> 01:09:21,960
there was like this interest thing

1733
01:09:26,090 --> 01:09:24,660
mixture of the old and the new and they

1734
01:09:28,610 --> 01:09:26,100
weren't seen as necessarily

1735
01:09:32,209 --> 01:09:28,620
contradictory but I was thinking about

1736
01:09:34,610 --> 01:09:32,219
the language how Warden ended up Ward

1737
01:09:35,990 --> 01:09:34,620
the award Spirit you call on your Wards

1738
01:09:38,930 --> 01:09:36,000
and then it sort of over time

1739
01:09:40,550 --> 01:09:38,940
transformed into this word weird and

1740
01:09:43,130 --> 01:09:40,560
yeah like uh you know it's something

1741
01:09:45,530 --> 01:09:43,140
that is the other negative you shouldn't

1742
01:09:48,470 --> 01:09:45,540
do the weird it's like bringing negative

1743
01:09:52,070 --> 01:09:48,480
attention to you could you talk just a

1744
01:09:54,350 --> 01:09:52,080
tiny bit about how like why is this

1745
01:09:57,530 --> 01:09:54,360
stuff a threat to the sort of

1746
01:10:01,250 --> 01:09:57,540
hierarchical religious institution the

1747
01:10:03,890 --> 01:10:01,260
order uh at least in Europe at the time

1748
01:10:05,810 --> 01:10:03,900
you know obviously stays on in other

1749
01:10:07,910 --> 01:10:05,820
places but they like essentially

1750
01:10:09,050 --> 01:10:07,920
eliminated the ritual practice of uh

1751
01:10:10,970 --> 01:10:09,060
religion when I was looking at the

1752
01:10:12,950 --> 01:10:10,980
occult it was all reconstructed because

1753
01:10:15,350 --> 01:10:12,960
it had entirely been eliminated in

1754
01:10:17,330 --> 01:10:15,360
Europe down into the most remote like

1755
01:10:19,729 --> 01:10:17,340
Norwegian Valley they got rid of it

1756
01:10:21,770 --> 01:10:19,739
fully could you just talk a little bit

1757
01:10:24,590 --> 01:10:21,780
about what your perception of why that

1758
01:10:26,870 --> 01:10:24,600
was so a scene is so threatening

1759
01:10:29,090 --> 01:10:26,880
well because it's an alternative source

1760
01:10:33,410 --> 01:10:29,100
of power you know if you claim to have

1761
01:10:35,090 --> 01:10:33,420
the the only valid power in the universe

1762
01:10:36,590 --> 01:10:35,100
the only valid Supernatural power and

1763
01:10:39,290 --> 01:10:36,600
then someone comes along and has another

1764
01:10:41,330 --> 01:10:39,300
one then that's a direct challenge to

1765
01:10:44,990 --> 01:10:41,340
you and this is something that occurs

1766
01:10:47,689 --> 01:10:45,000
with um with monotheism because if you

1767
01:10:48,950 --> 01:10:47,699
take an Empire like the Roman Empire for

1768
01:10:51,410 --> 01:10:48,960
example

1769
01:10:53,750 --> 01:10:51,420
they would they had their you know their

1770
01:10:56,390 --> 01:10:53,760
whole range of gods and when they went

1771
01:10:58,010 --> 01:10:56,400
somewhere new if somebody had a God that

1772
01:11:00,290 --> 01:10:58,020
was very similar

1773
01:11:02,270 --> 01:11:00,300
they would go oh oh yeah yeah that's uh

1774
01:11:03,649 --> 01:11:02,280
that's that's juice isn't it that's oh

1775
01:11:06,110 --> 01:11:03,659
that's Greek

1776
01:11:08,270 --> 01:11:06,120
um yeah you know that's Jupiter they and

1777
01:11:11,090 --> 01:11:08,280
they would they would co-identify them

1778
01:11:12,950 --> 01:11:11,100
so they were looking for similarities

1779
01:11:15,470 --> 01:11:12,960
all the time

1780
01:11:19,490 --> 01:11:15,480
um I'm trying to think of the

1781
01:11:21,950 --> 01:11:19,500
the local goddess in bath in England

1782
01:11:24,229 --> 01:11:21,960
um perhaps it was Solace but yeah anyway

1783
01:11:25,790 --> 01:11:24,239
they went there they found at this at

1784
01:11:29,209 --> 01:11:25,800
this cult

1785
01:11:31,550 --> 01:11:29,219
uh you know practice there um and it was

1786
01:11:33,110 --> 01:11:31,560
the center of of a cult and they said oh

1787
01:11:34,850 --> 01:11:33,120
yes you know that's that's co-identified

1788
01:11:38,390 --> 01:11:34,860
with Minerva so

1789
01:11:41,149 --> 01:11:38,400
so the whole idea was to try and find

1790
01:11:44,030 --> 01:11:41,159
points of similarity and then when you

1791
01:11:45,530 --> 01:11:44,040
do that somebody doesn't have an

1792
01:11:48,950 --> 01:11:45,540
external

1793
01:11:51,169 --> 01:11:48,960
um fulcrum of Power by believing in

1794
01:11:52,550 --> 01:11:51,179
another God they also believe that

1795
01:11:54,050 --> 01:11:52,560
sometimes they would they would go

1796
01:11:55,790 --> 01:11:54,060
somewhere really local they go oh this

1797
01:11:58,610 --> 01:11:55,800
is this is a local gold yeah it's still

1798
01:12:01,370 --> 01:11:58,620
valid but this is local God but where

1799
01:12:04,610 --> 01:12:01,380
you have monotheism you are making a

1800
01:12:06,410 --> 01:12:04,620
claim that you have the only legitimate

1801
01:12:08,510 --> 01:12:06,420
source of

1802
01:12:10,790 --> 01:12:08,520
uh Supernatural power

1803
01:12:13,850 --> 01:12:10,800
that is available and the other ones

1804
01:12:15,470 --> 01:12:13,860
therefore must either be invalid or evil

1805
01:12:19,610 --> 01:12:15,480
and

1806
01:12:21,590 --> 01:12:19,620
Western Christianity anyway

1807
01:12:24,830 --> 01:12:21,600
there was a

1808
01:12:27,709 --> 01:12:24,840
um a document called the uh uh the Canon

1809
01:12:30,290 --> 01:12:27,719
episcopy which broadly kind of I think

1810
01:12:33,350 --> 01:12:30,300
the earliest copy we have is kind of 9th

1811
01:12:36,590 --> 01:12:33,360
century or so 9th 10th Century but it

1812
01:12:39,530 --> 01:12:36,600
encapsulated the church's idea up to

1813
01:12:42,050 --> 01:12:39,540
that point which was that if you have

1814
01:12:43,610 --> 01:12:42,060
people who were going around you know

1815
01:12:46,189 --> 01:12:43,620
pretending to have magical powers they

1816
01:12:49,250 --> 01:12:46,199
were witches then um what they were

1817
01:12:50,270 --> 01:12:49,260
doing was morally wrong but and you

1818
01:12:51,830 --> 01:12:50,280
could chuck them out of the community

1819
01:12:55,310 --> 01:12:51,840
because you shouldn't really go around

1820
01:12:57,050 --> 01:12:55,320
being a witch but that the actual

1821
01:13:01,010 --> 01:12:57,060
potency the validity of what they

1822
01:13:03,050 --> 01:13:01,020
actually did uh it wasn't real that it

1823
01:13:06,590 --> 01:13:03,060
was all a mirage that that they didn't

1824
01:13:08,750 --> 01:13:06,600
actually have any power and so um you

1825
01:13:10,430 --> 01:13:08,760
could tell someone off for thinking the

1826
01:13:11,870 --> 01:13:10,440
wrong things and for kind of thinking

1827
01:13:13,669 --> 01:13:11,880
anti-social things but you couldn't tell

1828
01:13:15,169 --> 01:13:13,679
them off a substantive damage because

1829
01:13:17,930 --> 01:13:15,179
how could they do it if they had no

1830
01:13:20,270 --> 01:13:17,940
power and it was necessary for that to

1831
01:13:23,110 --> 01:13:20,280
be kind of reversed in all order for

1832
01:13:25,850 --> 01:13:23,120
there to be heresy and Witch Trials

1833
01:13:27,890 --> 01:13:25,860
Witch Trials legally started off with um

1834
01:13:30,530 --> 01:13:27,900
with with heresy trials really

1835
01:13:32,810 --> 01:13:30,540
so at some point there had to be a turn

1836
01:13:34,310 --> 01:13:32,820
where they turn over where they're

1837
01:13:37,669 --> 01:13:34,320
saying yeah there is real substantive

1838
01:13:40,430 --> 01:13:37,679
damage being done in the world by these

1839
01:13:43,070 --> 01:13:40,440
which by this that that means there has

1840
01:13:45,590 --> 01:13:43,080
to be a potion force and that means that

1841
01:13:46,790 --> 01:13:45,600
potent Force isn't God if it's doing bad

1842
01:13:48,830 --> 01:13:46,800
things

1843
01:13:50,510 --> 01:13:48,840
so it was kind of it was it was

1844
01:13:52,149 --> 01:13:50,520
necessary for Christianity to change in

1845
01:13:54,470 --> 01:13:52,159
the West for that to happen

1846
01:13:56,570 --> 01:13:54,480
when it comes to like Witch Trials and

1847
01:13:58,430 --> 01:13:56,580
stuff I can't help but think like I read

1848
01:14:01,010 --> 01:13:58,440
a lot of uh papers about the natural

1849
01:14:02,990 --> 01:14:01,020
world and stuff and this one uh you know

1850
01:14:04,850 --> 01:14:03,000
it's not especially relevant but there

1851
01:14:05,930 --> 01:14:04,860
is a huge issue with pine beetles in

1852
01:14:08,630 --> 01:14:05,940
North America where they're just

1853
01:14:10,970 --> 01:14:08,640
destroying all of the pine trees and um

1854
01:14:12,770 --> 01:14:10,980
there's a thing in the culture of the

1855
01:14:14,450 --> 01:14:12,780
beetle if you want to call it that where

1856
01:14:16,790 --> 01:14:14,460
when the population gets large enough

1857
01:14:18,290 --> 01:14:16,800
there's constraint on resources and

1858
01:14:19,790 --> 01:14:18,300
stuff they they sort of turn against

1859
01:14:22,490 --> 01:14:19,800
themselves and then there's a percentage

1860
01:14:24,110 --> 01:14:22,500
of the population that leave the

1861
01:14:26,270 --> 01:14:24,120
community and that's part of why the

1862
01:14:28,790 --> 01:14:26,280
spread is so vicious is that there's

1863
01:14:32,689 --> 01:14:28,800
this Perpetual push out of the community

1864
01:14:34,250 --> 01:14:32,699
and you know it's obviously a very basic

1865
01:14:35,570 --> 01:14:34,260
physical in the sense of a beetle

1866
01:14:37,550 --> 01:14:35,580
because they have no thought processes

1867
01:14:39,770 --> 01:14:37,560
but I can't help but sort of see

1868
01:14:42,169 --> 01:14:39,780
something similar occurring in human

1869
01:14:44,149 --> 01:14:42,179
culture except we have these layers of

1870
01:14:47,870 --> 01:14:44,159
interpretation and meaning that we apply

1871
01:14:49,610 --> 01:14:47,880
to it uh with the just the I mentioned

1872
01:14:51,830 --> 01:14:49,620
the sagas are the greenlanders the last

1873
01:14:55,250 --> 01:14:51,840
record we have from that Colony before

1874
01:14:57,530 --> 01:14:55,260
it collapsed was about the year 1400 a

1875
01:14:59,870 --> 01:14:57,540
merchant ship arrived back with letters

1876
01:15:02,510 --> 01:14:59,880
uh announcing a marriage on the

1877
01:15:05,750 --> 01:15:02,520
Greenland and then a with a witch trial

1878
01:15:08,030 --> 01:15:05,760
which was done uh by uh on a man

1879
01:15:09,590 --> 01:15:08,040
actually interestingly who was accused

1880
01:15:13,550 --> 01:15:09,600
of Witchcraft and burned at the stake

1881
01:15:16,430 --> 01:15:13,560
because he had Enchanted the ship

1882
01:15:17,930 --> 01:15:16,440
Captain's wife into uh having an affair

1883
01:15:20,450 --> 01:15:17,940
and uh

1884
01:15:22,850 --> 01:15:20,460
you know so there's uh The Colony we

1885
01:15:25,310 --> 01:15:22,860
know is under significant pressure uh

1886
01:15:27,050 --> 01:15:25,320
based on resources uh that it was

1887
01:15:29,810 --> 01:15:27,060
getting colder and things like that and

1888
01:15:32,450 --> 01:15:29,820
then this person who was Lifeline to the

1889
01:15:35,149 --> 01:15:32,460
community had uh you know his partner

1890
01:15:37,189 --> 01:15:35,159
ended up in an affair situation and the

1891
01:15:39,229 --> 01:15:37,199
community ended up burning this person

1892
01:15:41,689 --> 01:15:39,239
like would you be able to comment to

1893
01:15:43,910 --> 01:15:41,699
what extent what is like

1894
01:15:46,370 --> 01:15:43,920
do the witch trials go down when there's

1895
01:15:48,709 --> 01:15:46,380
more sort of resources food stability

1896
01:15:52,130 --> 01:15:48,719
and they go up when there's more Strife

1897
01:15:56,229 --> 01:15:52,140
in general is that is that an accuracy

1898
01:16:00,709 --> 01:15:56,239
well um the belief belief in witchcraft

1899
01:16:04,490 --> 01:16:00,719
of anti-social people uh is fairly

1900
01:16:06,229 --> 01:16:04,500
endemic through our pre-modern societies

1901
01:16:07,850 --> 01:16:06,239
so

1902
01:16:09,709 --> 01:16:07,860
um I I think it's weird people

1903
01:16:12,709 --> 01:16:09,719
Reinventing themselves as virtuous which

1904
01:16:15,310 --> 01:16:12,719
is now because it really was a label

1905
01:16:18,110 --> 01:16:15,320
applied from outside before

1906
01:16:20,450 --> 01:16:18,120
uh and

1907
01:16:24,169 --> 01:16:20,460
you wouldn't want to be accused of it

1908
01:16:26,570 --> 01:16:24,179
so uh but that is completely separate

1909
01:16:28,669 --> 01:16:26,580
from there kind of being a witch frenzy

1910
01:16:30,830 --> 01:16:28,679
and a lot of witch trials and so that

1911
01:16:34,430 --> 01:16:30,840
was a that was the 16th and 17th

1912
01:16:37,070 --> 01:16:34,440
centuries represent a different kind of

1913
01:16:39,050 --> 01:16:37,080
thing you know this era

1914
01:16:41,149 --> 01:16:39,060
um you were saying it was a it was a man

1915
01:16:43,250 --> 01:16:41,159
who was a witch actually there are

1916
01:16:44,630 --> 01:16:43,260
places in Europe in general it was

1917
01:16:47,750 --> 01:16:44,640
generally thought I think it's about

1918
01:16:50,570 --> 01:16:47,760
something like 30 70

1919
01:16:52,490 --> 01:16:50,580
um men to women so women were

1920
01:16:54,229 --> 01:16:52,500
um in a majority being accused of

1921
01:16:57,410 --> 01:16:54,239
Witchcraft but there were places where

1922
01:16:59,450 --> 01:16:57,420
men were in a majority

1923
01:17:01,910 --> 01:16:59,460
um or around the around the edges around

1924
01:17:03,950 --> 01:17:01,920
the periphery as you said in in

1925
01:17:06,110 --> 01:17:03,960
Greenland Russia places like that where

1926
01:17:07,430 --> 01:17:06,120
you would get uh Baltic states where you

1927
01:17:08,450 --> 01:17:07,440
would tend to get men accused of

1928
01:17:12,169 --> 01:17:08,460
witchcraft

1929
01:17:13,149 --> 01:17:12,179
uh more than you would women and Witch

1930
01:17:15,770 --> 01:17:13,159
Trials

1931
01:17:18,050 --> 01:17:15,780
so many reasons for the great witch

1932
01:17:20,330 --> 01:17:18,060
hunts in in Europe and people argue over

1933
01:17:25,370 --> 01:17:20,340
what the causes were but certainly they

1934
01:17:28,370 --> 01:17:25,380
occur during times of um of great strife

1935
01:17:31,250 --> 01:17:28,380
and they also tend to occur at places

1936
01:17:33,590 --> 01:17:31,260
where there is a lack of really strong

1937
01:17:37,070 --> 01:17:33,600
formal government so people can in an ad

1938
01:17:38,450 --> 01:17:37,080
hoc fashion uh find a scapegoat and and

1939
01:17:39,950 --> 01:17:38,460
do Dreadful things within their own

1940
01:17:42,050 --> 01:17:39,960
communities

1941
01:17:44,090 --> 01:17:42,060
um for example in England there weren't

1942
01:17:45,470 --> 01:17:44,100
actually many there weren't that many

1943
01:17:46,910 --> 01:17:45,480
Witch Trials there weren't that many

1944
01:17:49,250 --> 01:17:46,920
people

1945
01:17:53,030 --> 01:17:49,260
um killed witchcraft

1946
01:17:55,430 --> 01:17:53,040
but the largest number happened or you

1947
01:17:58,310 --> 01:17:55,440
know the sort of most condensed lot

1948
01:18:00,189 --> 01:17:58,320
happened during the English Civil War in

1949
01:18:03,709 --> 01:18:00,199
the 17th century

1950
01:18:06,530 --> 01:18:03,719
with Matthew Hopkins and um John Stern

1951
01:18:08,090 --> 01:18:06,540
and those two so and and that would be a

1952
01:18:09,649 --> 01:18:08,100
perfect example of when the government

1953
01:18:11,570 --> 01:18:09,659
just wasn't functioning like it should

1954
01:18:15,649 --> 01:18:11,580
do there weren't sort of magistrates and

1955
01:18:17,270 --> 01:18:15,659
things working normally uh yeah so so

1956
01:18:18,950 --> 01:18:17,280
the fact that they were under stress if

1957
01:18:20,209 --> 01:18:18,960
their government was a bit dodgy and

1958
01:18:22,729 --> 01:18:20,219
they were desperately looking for a

1959
01:18:24,890 --> 01:18:22,739
scapegoat and um you know killing a

1960
01:18:27,530 --> 01:18:24,900
witch is a former scapegoat ritual

1961
01:18:29,689 --> 01:18:27,540
right of course now that is pretty neat

1962
01:18:31,610 --> 01:18:29,699
to what you just said it made me think

1963
01:18:34,930 --> 01:18:31,620
about the I mean we were going into it

1964
01:18:38,149 --> 01:18:34,940
right now but the UFO thing the

1965
01:18:40,310 --> 01:18:38,159
breakdown occurred during the Trump uh

1966
01:18:41,750 --> 01:18:40,320
years there uh when all these

1967
01:18:43,970 --> 01:18:41,760
governments aren't coming out talking

1968
01:18:46,130 --> 01:18:43,980
about it more and more and I've talked

1969
01:18:47,450 --> 01:18:46,140
with uh you know people uh co-hosts in

1970
01:18:49,610 --> 01:18:47,460
here and among other people in the

1971
01:18:52,450 --> 01:18:49,620
community about this how it like seemed

1972
01:18:55,910 --> 01:18:52,460
almost like uh the Trump Administration

1973
01:18:57,590 --> 01:18:55,920
was like a foreign entity within the

1974
01:18:59,090 --> 01:18:57,600
American government almost and like you

1975
01:19:00,709 --> 01:18:59,100
know how is that influencing their

1976
01:19:02,450 --> 01:19:00,719
communication strategy about this

1977
01:19:04,750 --> 01:19:02,460
subject

1978
01:19:07,910 --> 01:19:04,760
um now a question that uh Leah uh

1979
01:19:11,810 --> 01:19:07,920
proposed has to do with the breakdown of

1980
01:19:14,450 --> 01:19:11,820
consensus reality in the modern uh day

1981
01:19:16,130 --> 01:19:14,460
and so like

1982
01:19:19,189 --> 01:19:16,140
there's there's two sides to that

1983
01:19:22,990 --> 01:19:19,199
obviously because like I I would argue

1984
01:19:26,209 --> 01:19:23,000
that a historical loci of power

1985
01:19:29,270 --> 01:19:26,219
presented a consensus reality that is

1986
01:19:31,370 --> 01:19:29,280
was largely inaccurate to what I would

1987
01:19:32,810 --> 01:19:31,380
say is actual reality uh it would sort

1988
01:19:35,990 --> 01:19:32,820
of be like um

1989
01:19:37,729 --> 01:19:36,000
uh what is it a zim uh the historian the

1990
01:19:38,990 --> 01:19:37,739
history of the people I believe is it

1991
01:19:41,209 --> 01:19:39,000
called them the American it's like the

1992
01:19:42,950 --> 01:19:41,219
actual history of the oppressed people

1993
01:19:45,110 --> 01:19:42,960
in the Americas like George Washington

1994
01:19:47,450 --> 01:19:45,120
was the wealthiest landowner became

1995
01:19:49,790 --> 01:19:47,460
president he also on the weekends uh

1996
01:19:53,630 --> 01:19:49,800
engaged in Acts of horrific genocide

1997
01:19:56,030 --> 01:19:53,640
enslavement all this stuff so um

1998
01:19:59,270 --> 01:19:56,040
when you have the the central Authority

1999
01:20:01,130 --> 01:19:59,280
falling apart that's uh it's intriguing

2000
01:20:05,110 --> 01:20:01,140
to me that there's this sort of parallel

2001
01:20:08,149 --> 01:20:05,120
in the UFO side and um yeah

2002
01:20:09,590 --> 01:20:08,159
it is kind of and also it's interesting

2003
01:20:11,270 --> 01:20:09,600
to work out the cause of relationship

2004
01:20:14,270 --> 01:20:11,280
with that as well because you're

2005
01:20:16,669 --> 01:20:14,280
thinking well is it is it because Donald

2006
01:20:18,410 --> 01:20:16,679
Trump is a bit random that people are

2007
01:20:21,290 --> 01:20:18,420
believing in UFOs or is it because the

2008
01:20:24,850 --> 01:20:21,300
world is a bit random that Donald Trump

2009
01:20:28,189 --> 01:20:24,860
got elected and people people

2010
01:20:29,930 --> 01:20:28,199
yes yes okay I get it it's kind of you

2011
01:20:32,030 --> 01:20:29,940
know it's working out the cause of

2012
01:20:36,470 --> 01:20:32,040
relationships there so I think Donald

2013
01:20:42,470 --> 01:20:38,810
yes yes he certainly is there's

2014
01:20:45,350 --> 01:20:42,480
something uh problematic occurring in

2015
01:20:47,689 --> 01:20:45,360
the heart of America and uh we all hope

2016
01:20:50,149 --> 01:20:47,699
that America recovers like well not all

2017
01:20:52,430 --> 01:20:50,159
but uh largely because it's the original

2018
01:20:54,410 --> 01:20:52,440
issue if there's a bigger problem

2019
01:20:55,970 --> 01:20:54,420
um so I guess we'll uh we'll blame to

2020
01:20:57,530 --> 01:20:55,980
close out in about nine minutes at the

2021
01:20:59,330 --> 01:20:57,540
bottom of the hour

2022
01:21:02,090 --> 01:20:59,340
um unfortunately I guess Leah got uh

2023
01:21:04,850 --> 01:21:02,100
held up in her meeting sadly I know she

2024
01:21:06,590 --> 01:21:04,860
was excited to be on here

2025
01:21:10,010 --> 01:21:06,600
um let me think on a closing note

2026
01:21:13,729 --> 01:21:10,020
actually okay you are a prominent uh

2027
01:21:17,689 --> 01:21:16,550
Community I really deeply respect your

2028
01:21:22,189 --> 01:21:17,699
opinion

2029
01:21:25,610 --> 01:21:22,199
um so I in this show I have like my

2030
01:21:28,850 --> 01:21:25,620
thing that I do uapstudy.com where I'm

2031
01:21:31,310 --> 01:21:28,860
trying to you know naturalize the UFO

2032
01:21:33,709 --> 01:21:31,320
phenomenon to varying you know degrees

2033
01:21:35,930 --> 01:21:33,719
of success I get some criticism from

2034
01:21:38,149 --> 01:21:35,940
Skeptics uh about my Approach

2035
01:21:41,630 --> 01:21:38,159
specifically so I'd love to have this

2036
01:21:43,130 --> 01:21:41,640
moment to have you sort of tell me if I

2037
01:21:45,770 --> 01:21:43,140
just sound

2038
01:21:48,050 --> 01:21:45,780
crazy if it's not useful at all for me

2039
01:21:50,030 --> 01:21:48,060
to present it from this lens

2040
01:21:52,669 --> 01:21:50,040
on my website and I don't know whether

2041
01:21:53,990 --> 01:21:52,679
to include it or not there are uh and

2042
01:21:55,669 --> 01:21:54,000
this is what I'd like to hear your

2043
01:21:58,250 --> 01:21:55,679
opinion on now there's a huge issue with

2044
01:22:01,189 --> 01:21:58,260
conspiracy theory in the UFO subject

2045
01:22:03,050 --> 01:22:01,199
there are also like our you know and I

2046
01:22:05,510 --> 01:22:03,060
have no interest in conspiracy theories

2047
01:22:08,450 --> 01:22:05,520
in general there are documented you know

2048
01:22:09,649 --> 01:22:08,460
historical realities that we know of for

2049
01:22:11,209 --> 01:22:09,659
example the United States had an

2050
01:22:12,950 --> 01:22:11,219
elaborate listening system in the

2051
01:22:14,450 --> 01:22:12,960
Pacific Ocean through the uh Cold War

2052
01:22:16,130 --> 01:22:14,460
where they knew the exact locations of

2053
01:22:18,830 --> 01:22:16,140
the Russian nuclear Fleet and they kept

2054
01:22:20,750 --> 01:22:18,840
that secret for several decades uh they

2055
01:22:23,270 --> 01:22:20,760
sent out the CIA did a huge operation to

2056
01:22:24,950 --> 01:22:23,280
recover a nuclear sub that had been lost

2057
01:22:26,330 --> 01:22:24,960
by Russia Russia didn't or was the

2058
01:22:27,830 --> 01:22:26,340
Americans knew exactly where it was

2059
01:22:29,930 --> 01:22:27,840
through this listening technology nobody

2060
01:22:31,550 --> 01:22:29,940
knew for decades um so there are very

2061
01:22:33,770 --> 01:22:31,560
interesting elaborate historical

2062
01:22:36,470 --> 01:22:33,780
conspiracies

2063
01:22:38,750 --> 01:22:36,480
um and so on the website I include a

2064
01:22:41,030 --> 01:22:38,760
section about like the documents that we

2065
01:22:42,950 --> 01:22:41,040
have available from the government in

2066
01:22:44,570 --> 01:22:42,960
relation to UFOs now the most

2067
01:22:46,490 --> 01:22:44,580
interesting one that I find is actually

2068
01:22:48,830 --> 01:22:46,500
from the United Kingdom's Ministry of

2069
01:22:51,830 --> 01:22:48,840
Defense released in 2000

2070
01:22:54,950 --> 01:22:51,840
um it's a report prepared by uh the

2071
01:22:57,410 --> 01:22:54,960
defense intelligence section 55 and the

2072
01:22:59,630 --> 01:22:57,420
guardian did a significant number of

2073
01:23:02,030 --> 01:22:59,640
features on at BBC News wired the

2074
01:23:03,350 --> 01:23:02,040
elaborate features we know the exact

2075
01:23:06,169 --> 01:23:03,360
details of this we know it was a real

2076
01:23:07,790 --> 01:23:06,179
document it was a used to brief it's all

2077
01:23:10,070 --> 01:23:07,800
senior leadership within the ministry of

2078
01:23:14,290 --> 01:23:10,080
Defense all this stuff

2079
01:23:17,390 --> 01:23:14,300
um so this report says that UFOs it says

2080
01:23:20,270 --> 01:23:17,400
indisputably exist have the features

2081
01:23:23,030 --> 01:23:20,280
that are typically uh reported in the in

2082
01:23:25,490 --> 01:23:23,040
all especially anomalous residual of uh

2083
01:23:26,750 --> 01:23:25,500
difficult to explain cases you know

2084
01:23:28,729 --> 01:23:26,760
lights of various colors accelerate

2085
01:23:30,649 --> 01:23:28,739
instantaneously comes down landed all

2086
01:23:31,669 --> 01:23:30,659
this stuff orbit airplanes and stuff

2087
01:23:33,890 --> 01:23:31,679
like that and they say that it's

2088
01:23:35,689 --> 01:23:33,900
indisputable these objects exist and

2089
01:23:38,090 --> 01:23:35,699
then that's says we are almost certain

2090
01:23:40,370 --> 01:23:38,100
that they are an unusual uh kind of

2091
01:23:42,470 --> 01:23:40,380
expression of atmospheric electricity a

2092
01:23:44,090 --> 01:23:42,480
kind of ball lightning

2093
01:23:46,130 --> 01:23:44,100
um and it says like we've briefed our

2094
01:23:47,689 --> 01:23:46,140
leadership you know we don't really want

2095
01:23:50,990 --> 01:23:47,699
to talk about this publicly because we

2096
01:23:53,030 --> 01:23:51,000
think that the Russians are ahead on

2097
01:23:54,050 --> 01:23:53,040
this very particular kind of plasma

2098
01:23:56,050 --> 01:23:54,060
physics and we don't want to bring

2099
01:23:59,630 --> 01:23:56,060
attention to that yada yada

2100
01:24:01,490 --> 01:23:59,640
is there in your opinion any value in me

2101
01:24:03,110 --> 01:24:01,500
even including that on there or as a

2102
01:24:05,270 --> 01:24:03,120
skeptic do you find that that is

2103
01:24:07,790 --> 01:24:05,280
distracting and sort of makes you think

2104
01:24:10,010 --> 01:24:07,800
conspiracy theory

2105
01:24:13,070 --> 01:24:10,020
no I think you should include it because

2106
01:24:15,709 --> 01:24:13,080
it exists and also you could start off

2107
01:24:17,229 --> 01:24:15,719
your own conspiracy theory which is that

2108
01:24:22,010 --> 01:24:17,239
you are

2109
01:24:24,050 --> 01:24:22,020
don't have to start that one I've uh

2110
01:24:26,510 --> 01:24:24,060
people have dropped that put a lizard

2111
01:24:29,570 --> 01:24:26,520
head on me online like I am in the

2112
01:24:32,990 --> 01:24:29,580
conspiracy don't worry because here you

2113
01:24:34,550 --> 01:24:33,000
are trying to set yourself up as a

2114
01:24:36,530 --> 01:24:34,560
source of knowledge and yet you are

2115
01:24:39,709 --> 01:24:36,540
suppressing some of the key knowledge so

2116
01:24:42,050 --> 01:24:39,719
yeah I mean you know if it's out there

2117
01:24:44,870 --> 01:24:42,060
you've got to include it and uh and and

2118
01:24:46,250 --> 01:24:44,880
also as you quite rightly point out just

2119
01:24:48,050 --> 01:24:46,260
because

2120
01:24:50,090 --> 01:24:48,060
some people believe in conspiracy

2121
01:24:53,090 --> 01:24:50,100
theories it doesn't mean that

2122
01:24:54,950 --> 01:24:53,100
conspiracies don't happen uh it's just

2123
01:24:57,189 --> 01:24:54,960
that people who believe in conspiracy

2124
01:25:00,410 --> 01:24:57,199
theories tend to have kind of um

2125
01:25:02,689 --> 01:25:00,420
specific traits like for example they

2126
01:25:04,790 --> 01:25:02,699
believe in more than one uh they're not

2127
01:25:09,709 --> 01:25:04,800
particularly put off when some of them

2128
01:25:11,930 --> 01:25:09,719
are mutually exclusively fervently so

2129
01:25:14,570 --> 01:25:11,940
um yeah I mean I I think you you put all

2130
01:25:15,770 --> 01:25:14,580
the information out there and uh and it

2131
01:25:17,510 --> 01:25:15,780
just makes you look like you're being a

2132
01:25:19,550 --> 01:25:17,520
bit more straight up I mean the thing

2133
01:25:21,310 --> 01:25:19,560
that would really be awful is if you

2134
01:25:23,689 --> 01:25:21,320
were selected with your information

2135
01:25:25,310 --> 01:25:23,699
that's a hilarious point I didn't think

2136
01:25:27,470 --> 01:25:25,320
about like because uh yeah if I take

2137
01:25:28,790 --> 01:25:27,480
that off and then somebody uh pulls up

2138
01:25:30,430 --> 01:25:28,800
the Wayback machine and they're like

2139
01:25:33,169 --> 01:25:30,440
he's suppressed again

2140
01:25:35,810 --> 01:25:33,179
yeah like like you said just get your

2141
01:25:37,729 --> 01:25:35,820
Lizard Head ready yes yes although I

2142
01:25:39,890 --> 01:25:37,739
love it I love that stuff it's uh funny

2143
01:25:42,050 --> 01:25:39,900
actually okay let's see here we got uh

2144
01:25:43,970 --> 01:25:42,060
got a little comment here why do so many

2145
01:25:46,250 --> 01:25:43,980
male podcasts this place the obligatory

2146
01:25:48,890 --> 01:25:46,260
guitar and shot that's a good question

2147
01:25:50,870 --> 01:25:48,900
the answer is I play guitar I didn't put

2148
01:25:53,270 --> 01:25:50,880
it on the wall actually my wife did but

2149
01:25:55,189 --> 01:25:53,280
okay I chose to podcast in front of it

2150
01:25:58,189 --> 01:25:55,199
because you know what I guess I'm

2151
01:26:01,490 --> 01:25:58,199
showing off that I can do music that's

2152
01:26:03,770 --> 01:26:01,500
true and and I'm that in that case why

2153
01:26:05,270 --> 01:26:03,780
do so many female podcasters have um the

2154
01:26:09,169 --> 01:26:05,280
head of Pazuzu

2155
01:26:11,149 --> 01:26:09,179
what is that that's the um that that is

2156
01:26:13,310 --> 01:26:11,159
the storm God Pazuzu Babylonian storm

2157
01:26:17,330 --> 01:26:13,320
God that was used as the Devil Himself

2158
01:26:20,750 --> 01:26:17,340
in um The Exorcist not not the original

2159
01:26:22,729 --> 01:26:20,760
it's it's a copy but uh yeah yeah that's

2160
01:26:24,350 --> 01:26:22,739
so cool okay yeah

2161
01:26:27,050 --> 01:26:24,360
yeah you need a wall of things for

2162
01:26:29,930 --> 01:26:27,060
people to point out and criticize a

2163
01:26:32,750 --> 01:26:29,940
little bit it makes it fun

2164
01:26:34,850 --> 01:26:32,760
okay well uh you know it's been a lot of

2165
01:26:36,470 --> 01:26:34,860
fun uh Deborah really enjoyed this

2166
01:26:37,910 --> 01:26:36,480
conversation it has I've really enjoyed

2167
01:26:40,250 --> 01:26:37,920
talking to you thank you ever so much

2168
01:26:41,689 --> 01:26:40,260
for having me yeah thank you and uh

2169
01:26:43,310 --> 01:26:41,699
hopefully

2170
01:26:47,090 --> 01:26:43,320
maybe in a couple months we could have

2171
01:26:49,610 --> 01:26:47,100
you back and I can get lock down my

2172
01:26:50,930 --> 01:26:49,620
co-hosts because I know that they have a

2173
01:26:52,370 --> 01:26:50,940
ton of different things that they could

2174
01:26:55,070 --> 01:26:52,380
bring to the table and that would be

2175
01:26:56,030 --> 01:26:55,080
fantastic yeah thank you is there uh is

2176
01:26:57,110 --> 01:26:56,040
there anything that you're working on

2177
01:26:58,970 --> 01:26:57,120
right now you want to draw people's

2178
01:27:00,890 --> 01:26:58,980
attention to I have your links in the

2179
01:27:01,970 --> 01:27:00,900
show notes below to your website and

2180
01:27:03,890 --> 01:27:01,980
Twitter

2181
01:27:05,510 --> 01:27:03,900
um is there anything else you'd like to

2182
01:27:07,669 --> 01:27:05,520
uh plug right now

2183
01:27:09,350 --> 01:27:07,679
yeah follow me on Twitter if you want to

2184
01:27:11,870 --> 01:27:09,360
follow me mostly that's what I'm on most

2185
01:27:14,149 --> 01:27:11,880
of the time and also I don't know what

2186
01:27:16,010 --> 01:27:14,159
reception is like internationally but on

2187
01:27:18,950 --> 01:27:16,020
BBC sounds at the moment

2188
01:27:21,470 --> 01:27:18,960
um uh I'm Kenny is the podcast that I'm

2189
01:27:24,530 --> 01:27:21,480
most frequently on where people have

2190
01:27:26,510 --> 01:27:24,540
anomalous experiences and and we have um

2191
01:27:28,010 --> 01:27:26,520
there's a believer in a skeptic usually

2192
01:27:29,390 --> 01:27:28,020
comment so that's that's kind of what

2193
01:27:30,649 --> 01:27:29,400
I'm doing at the moment but if you want

2194
01:27:32,510 --> 01:27:30,659
to know what I'm doing in general then

2195
01:27:35,330 --> 01:27:32,520
it's always on the website

2196
01:27:37,070 --> 01:27:35,340
excellent all right well I guess uh

2197
01:27:41,149 --> 01:27:37,080
that'll wrap us up for this week

2198
01:27:42,950 --> 01:27:41,159
everybody uh it's great to have got the

2199
01:27:44,390 --> 01:27:42,960
show going even though I was uh running

2200
01:27:47,870 --> 01:27:44,400
at solo this is actually the first show

2201
01:27:49,970 --> 01:27:47,880
I've done entirely solo and uh I

2202
01:27:52,790 --> 01:27:49,980
screwed up the beginning but I I kept it

2203
01:27:54,530 --> 01:27:52,800
going I think for the most part and uh

2204
01:27:57,229 --> 01:27:54,540
yeah so anyway uh yeah thanks so much

2205
01:28:06,550 --> 01:27:57,239
Deborah I'll uh close this up thank you

2206
01:28:45,060 --> 01:28:42,470
[Music]

2207
01:28:48,970 --> 01:28:45,070
[Applause]

2208
01:28:50,730 --> 01:28:48,980
[Music]